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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Forced Conversions Split

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  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Conversion in Europe was to a large degree token. The great cathedrals were never filled, most people simply gave lip service to Christianity. That is still true today.
    I don't believe that for a second.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Roman emperors progressively outlawed paganism. I think the idea that forced conversion doesn't work is magical thinking that developed in the west once liberal ideas started permeating society.
    Conversion in Europe was to a large degree token. The great cathedrals were never filled, most people simply gave lip service to Christianity. That is still true today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Oh, you think those were forced conversions. People tended to do what the king did, at least eventually. And (pagan) Rome had a thing about targeting druids, which didn't help the survivability of the indigenous religions.
    Roman emperors progressively outlawed paganism. I think the idea that forced conversion doesn't work is magical thinking that developed in the west once liberal ideas started permeating society.


    As an aside, where the heck is my strike tag? Snark is a lot harder without it.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Yeah that's why there's still all those pagans around Europe.

    Just because some families don't end up converted doesn't mean that's the norm.
    Oh, you think those were forced conversions. People tended to do what the king did, at least eventually. And (pagan) Rome had a thing about targeting druids, which didn't help the survivability of the indigenous religions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    No, it just leads to a pretense of belief, while the suppressed belief gets passed down in secret, even across generations. Christianity, for example, was suppressed in Japan for 4 centuries (on pain of death), yet was still being passed down. There is evidence of secret Jews coming to light even today after yet longer time periods.
    Yeah that's why there's still all those pagans around Europe.

    Just because some families don't end up converted doesn't mean that's the norm.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    What people believe can be quite flexible. It's obvious forced conversion does lead to genuine belief, especially across generations.
    No, it just leads to a pretense of belief, while the suppressed belief gets passed down in secret, even across generations. Christianity, for example, was suppressed in Japan for 4 centuries (on pain of death), yet was still being passed down. There is evidence of secret Jews coming to light even today after yet longer time periods.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    You can force people to say things but you cannot force them to believe.
    What people believe can be quite flexible. It's obvious forced conversion does lead to genuine belief, especially across generations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Teallaura
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    How? Christ never prohibited forced conversions. You can derive that from His other teachings but it's hardly direct.
    John 3:16. You can force people to say things but you cannot force them to believe. Belief, not verbal acknowledgement, is critical and therefore forced conversions are indeed in direct opposition to Christ's teaching.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Shake the dust off your feet and leave.
    Was forced conversion a realistic option?

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    How? Christ never prohibited forced conversions. You can derive that from His other teachings but it's hardly direct.
    Shake the dust off your feet and leave.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    started a topic Forced Conversions Split

    Forced Conversions Split

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    such forced conversions go directly against the teachings of Christ
    How? Christ never prohibited forced conversions. You can derive that from His other teachings but it's hardly direct.

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