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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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A Contradiction?

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  • A Contradiction?

    2 Samuel 12:

    And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

    Deut: 24:16

    "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."


    Ezekiel 18:20

    "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the fatherís iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the sonís iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
    So didn't David's son bear the punishment his sin?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I was actually just thinking about this the other day. I'm just now reading through an article JPH wrote on it. I don't think I have any business linking to an article I haven't read yet but this is an interesting issue.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I was actually just thinking about this the other day. I'm just now reading through an article JPH wrote on it. I don't think I have any business linking to an article I haven't read yet but this is an interesting issue.
      Yes, I'm not sure there is a way around it.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I was actually just thinking about this the other day. I'm just now reading through an article JPH wrote on it. I don't think I have any business linking to an article I haven't read yet but this is an interesting issue.
        Or you could provide the link for anyone who is curious so that they don't have to go search for it themselves
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          Or you could provide the link for anyone who is curious so that they don't have to go search for it themselves
          Here, it's got it's own links to other articles that touch on the subject.

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          • #6
            Do we have any evidence to show that the child actually suffered? (I don't know)
            Do we have any evidence to show that God will take the life of a child so that the child will not see suffering? (I believe there is a passage that says as much)
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • #7
              In Inspiration and Incarnation, Peter Enns says that it's just basically a contradiction. To be convinced of that I would have to be shown that the cited statements are meant to be universal in scope.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                So didn't David's son bear the punishment his sin?
                Deuteronomy 24 is in the midst of miscellaneous laws for Israel. They are dealing with how to relate to other Israelites. This particular law is for the Israelites when they deal with others in matters of law breaking where capital punishment is to be exercised by the Israelites themselves. David's son was not "put to death" by any Israelite, citizen or leader. He was taken by God, who has the right to give and take ALL life. Also, notice what Nathan said why the child would be taken. It was not because of David's sin directly, it was because in God forgiving him, who was the King of Israel, other nations may blaspheme the Lord. So, no, this isn't a contradiction. Were God to have had the Levites conduct an execution of the child, then yes, it would have been a contradiction, but God Himself took the baby's life, and for His own reason, not directly for David's action with Bathsheba and Uriah.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So didn't David's son bear the punishment his sin?
                  No! David was punished by the loss of his son. The child is in the hands of God. Death is not necessarily a punishment in and of itself.

                  And it is indeed a good point that God is not subject to the same limitations as are men. We are not competent to judge anything He does.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                  • #10
                    Jeremiah 31:27-31 - set for time future of the writing.
                    Ezekiel 18:1-4 henceforth

                    I don't know of anything explicit that applies before the time of Ezekiel.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Deuteronomy 24 is in the midst of miscellaneous laws for Israel. They are dealing with how to relate to other Israelites. This particular law is for the Israelites when they deal with others in matters of law breaking where capital punishment is to be exercised by the Israelites themselves. David's son was not "put to death" by any Israelite, citizen or leader. He was taken by God, who has the right to give and take ALL life. Also, notice what Nathan said why the child would be taken. It was not because of David's sin directly, it was because in God forgiving him, who was the King of Israel, other nations may blaspheme the Lord. So, no, this isn't a contradiction. Were God to have had the Levites conduct an execution of the child, then yes, it would have been a contradiction, but God Himself took the baby's life, and for His own reason, not directly for David's action with Bathsheba and Uriah.
                      Ok, that makes sense.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment

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