Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Merits/Demerits of Reformed Theology VS. Jehovas Wittnesses.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    Just as an observation:

    At Genesis 3:17 God proclaimed his punishment upon Adam "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life". If you have married you know such is fulfilled!!!

    An interesting proposition: Gen 2:21-24 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Given Adam & Eve were our first mother & father, Adam would have had no concept of at least the mother roles (they are proposed as being created by the Father alone), so obviously we have a scribal insertion from a much later date. Given Jesus' repetive testimony that man and one wife (exclusively for life) were meant to be as (if) one flesh, then why was it offensive to God that Adam following his wife acted as "one flesh".

    I have an answer but it may not be acceptable to you...
    My response is a simple one...
    One flesh does not constitute one mind and one spirit. The one flesh therefore does not negate God's commands to Adam. Ought not man obey God before man....

    Would love to hear your response...

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
      My response is a simple one...
      One flesh does not constitute one mind and one spirit. The one flesh therefore does not negate God's commands to Adam. Ought not man obey God before man....

      Would love to hear your response...
      I don't disagree completely. However, I would object that to be be of one flesh "does not constitute one mind and one spirit". Unity is a foreign concept to much of humanity. I was married at a young age and for a respectable period of time. While my children were of a young age, my then wife and I were of one mind and one spirit in respect of our children and life style.

      I agree with you 100% "Ought not man obey God before man....", though the issue in Genesis is that Adam placed the word of Eve above the word of God....

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
        One thing about sovereignty that logic demands that we understand. Sovereignty in no way dictates to God what he must to in order to be sovereign. Sovereignty represents Gods unalterable right to do what he pleases. Foreknowledge is in no way causative. God can have foreknowledge of things that you and I will or will not do of our own volition.
        We seem to agree here.
        God did not chose his elect corporately or personally, of his own volition and according to his good pleasure, God choose FAITH as the only way to salvation. He did this not based on any merit in men, but as was pleasing to him.


        It is a choice manifested in faith, even though God foreknew our choice, it still emanates from our own volition.
        Can you support this argument from scripture?

        It would appear that I disagree. While I do agree faith is a condition of election to be meant according to God's grace. But I contend that the election is according to God's foreknowledge through sanctification of the Spirit which precedes the faith.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #79
          dacristoy,

          re: "It is a choice manifested in faith, even though God foreknew our choice, it still emanates from our own volition."

          Does He have anything to do with the creation of an individual?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by rstrats View Post
            dacristoy,

            re: "It is a choice manifested in faith, even though God foreknew our choice, it still emanates from our own volition."

            Does He have anything to do with the creation of an individual?
            Is this a trick question? Of course, he had everything to do with every individual that exists...

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              We seem to agree here.
              Can you support this argument from scripture?
              It would appear that I disagree. While I do agree faith is a condition of election to be meant according to God's grace.
              This comment says nothing. What do you mean by that? If you agree that “faith is a condition of election, then you cannot suppose it the other way around…

              But I contend that the election is according to God's foreknowledge through sanctification of the Spirit which precedes the faith.
              Central to any good exegesis of scripture is the fact that any conclusions based on one scripture or group of scriptures cannot/must not contradict the whole of scripture. <Line upon line, precept upon precept.>

              “Election is according to foreknowledge”, foreknowledge of what? We are saved by grace through faith, the bible is abundantly clear on that fact. Ergo there can be no salvation without faith as salvation is predicated upon faith.. Yet you contend that we are saved by God absent any presence of faith. The whole of scripture screams, “You are wrong”.

              Foreknowledge lacks the power to save, if you contend that it does then you are preaching universalism, as God foreknows everything and everybody. {Are you using foreknowledge to suggest relationship or intellectual knowledge, the bible uses it both ways.}

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                This comment says nothing. What do you mean by that? If you agree that “faith is a condition of election, then you cannot suppose it the other way around…
                I'll agree that faith is a condition of election in time (2Thessalonians 2:13-14, Matthew 22:14). But not the condition of election (Ephesians 1:4) before time. God in His omniscience foreknows those who are His. It is not foreseeing, its foreknowing (Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23, 1 John 3:2).

                Central to any good exegesis of scripture is the fact that any conclusions based on one scripture or group of scriptures cannot/must not contradict the whole of scripture. <Line upon line, precept upon precept.>
                Two things here. You have not provided any holy scripture to support your view. Give one verse or context which ties election through faith as you seem to claim. As for, <Line upon line, precept upon precept> that is to be upon the religious but lost, ". . . But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. . . ."
                “Election is according to foreknowledge”, foreknowledge of what? We are saved by grace through faith, the bible is abundantly clear on that fact. Ergo there can be no salvation without faith as salvation is predicated upon faith.. Yet you contend that we are saved by God absent any presence of faith. The whole of scripture screams, “You are wrong”.
                There is no salvation without God's grace. And faith comes from God, ". . . So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." God's foreknowledge to choose us to salvation is through[εν] sanctification of the Spirit which precedes and includes the belief in the truth. Even as salvation by grace is through[δια] faith.
                Foreknowledge lacks the power to save, if you contend that it does then you are preaching universalism, as God foreknows everything and everybody. {Are you using foreknowledge to suggest relationship or intellectual knowledge, the bible uses it both ways.}
                "Preaching universalism" is a false accusation.

                Human foreknowledge is learned. The foreknowledge by which God elects His, is God's alone. God is the one who does the saving, not do to our choosing. We do not merit salvation by believing the truth. Nevertheless choosing truth is how God chooses us (John 18:37).

                Now assess what we do agree on. Point by point. Where we disagree. Re-quote it. Point out the holy scripture you think it denies.
                Last edited by 37818; 10-14-2014, 10:44 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  I'll agree that faith is a condition of election in time (2Thessalonians 2:13-14, Matthew 22:14). But not the condition of election (Ephesians 1:4) before time.
                  What was it before time?
                  God in His omniscience foreknows those who are His. It is not foreseeing, its foreknowing (Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23, 1 John 3:2).
                  If he foreknew those that are his, then logic demands that by default he knew those that were not his. By some criteria God has already separated those that belong to him. My contention is that the same criteria used before time was carried over into time.
                  8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

                  Two things here. You have not provided any holy scripture to support your view. Give one verse or context which ties election through faith as you seem to claim.
                  Ephesians 2:8
                  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                  As for, <Line upon line, precept upon precept> that is to be upon the religious but lost, ". . . But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. . . ."
                  What are you trying to say here?
                  There is no salvation without God's grace. And faith comes from God, ". . . So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
                  Factually, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
                  God's foreknowledge to choose us to salvation is through[εν] sanctification of the Spirit which precedes and includes the belief in the truth. Even as salvation by grace is through[δια] faith.
                  "Preaching universalism" is a false accusation.
                  God’s foreknowledge, what did God foreknow by which he chose some and rejected others. There is something about the mass of humanity by which God chooses some (That is faith) and rejects others.
                  The essence of the word elect/choose is that the act demands criteria.
                  Human foreknowledge is learned. The foreknowledge by which God elects His, is God's alone. God is the one who does the saving, not do to our choosing. We do not merit salvation by believing the truth. Nevertheless choosing truth is how God chooses us (John 18:37).
                  Nevertheless, what we merit or do not merit is of no consequence here. For we are saved by grace through faith.
                  Now assess what we do agree on. Point by point. Where we disagree. Re-quote it. Point out the holy scripture you think it denies.
                  The main and most devastating thing that we disagree on is God creating a mass of beings in his precious image, saving a few and then casting the rest into eternal torment in a way that holds them accountable for what he and he alone did.

                  2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/B]

                  Why do men perish? Is it because they were not elected? Not according to these passages. They perish because they rejected (received not) the truth the truth of God that was offered to them. Logically we do not/cannot reject unless there was an offer.

                  11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                  12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


                  Who does God damn? That be those that refused to believe the truth because they chose the pleasures of unrighteousness over the truth of God. Again, election into salvation is excluded…

                  11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

                  Having rejected the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they will believe (place faith in) the lies…

                  12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

                  Salvific election is a part of the deception that men choose to believe.
                  Last edited by dacristoy; 10-17-2014, 01:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    If we look at the belief system of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the following passages appear to set them outside the confines of salvation.

                    They do not accept Christ as The Son of God.
                    1 John 5:12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

                    What say ye?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                      What qualifies one and disqualifies the other as mainstream Christianity?
                      Nicea.
                      Chalcedon.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        dacristoy,

                        re: "Of course, he had everything to do with every individual that exists... "

                        In your post #71 you wrote: "...God foreknew our choice..." So if He knows before He creates a person that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you suppose He goes ahead and creates the person anyway?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                          dacristoy,

                          re: "Of course, he had everything to do with every individual that exists... "

                          In your post #71 you wrote: "...God foreknew our choice..." So if He knows before He creates a person that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you suppose He goes ahead and creates the person anyway?
                          God Is a God or order and not of confusion. God gave us his word to teach us and not to confuse or trick us. Ergo the application of the rules of logic are necessary for our understanding.

                          In order for God to “foreknow” the choices that an individual will make, the individual must in fact already exist in order to have made said choice. Just putting everything in a logical order of existence. You are assuming putting the cart before the horse..
                          I appreciate your response, may God bless

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                            What was it before time?
                            God is omniscient. God always knew who are his.
                            If he foreknew those that are his, then logic demands that by default he knew those that were not his. By some criteria God has already separated those that belong to him. My contention is that the same criteria used before time was carried over into time.
                            8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
                            And?

                            Ephesians 2:8
                            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                            Agreed.
                            What are you trying to say here?
                            What was God saying?
                            Factually, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
                            Agreed.

                            God’s foreknowledge, what did God foreknow by which he chose some and rejected others. There is something about the mass of humanity by which God chooses some (That is faith) and rejects others.
                            The essence of the word elect/choose is that the act demands criteria.
                            God is not finite in His election.

                            Nevertheless, what we merit or do not merit is of no consequence here. For we are saved by grace through faith.
                            But it is of consequence. The lost think their faith merits salvation. Typically along with supposed required works of faith.
                            Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



                            The main and most devastating thing that we disagree on is God creating a mass of beings in his precious image, saving a few and then casting the rest into eternal torment in a way that holds them accountable for what he and he alone did.

                            2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


                            Why do men perish? Is it because they were not elected? Not according to these passages. They perish because they rejected (received not) the truth the truth of God that was offered to them. Logically we do not/cannot reject unless there was an offer.

                            11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
                            12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


                            Who does God damn? That be those that refused to believe the truth because they chose the pleasures of unrighteousness over the truth of God. Again, election into salvation is excluded…

                            11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

                            Having rejected the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they will believe (place faith in) the lies…

                            12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

                            Salvific election is a part of the deception that men choose to believe.
                            So am I to understand that you think Ephesians 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . . to be the lie?

                            Do this, if you would, outline, foreknowledge, election/choosing, before, predestination, from/since/after, sanctification of the Holy Spirit, obedience, truth, faith. In what order you think God did this.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              What qualifies one and disqualifies the other as mainstream Christianity?
                              The divinity of Jesus Christ.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                dacristoy,

                                re: "In order for God to 'foreknow' the choices that an individual will make, the individual must in fact already exist in order to have made said choice."

                                Does He know before He creates a specific individual that He will be creating the individual sometime in the future?

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X