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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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What does it mean to "make your call and election sure"?

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  • dacristoy
    replied
    Intended response to RBerman, You lost me, what is what?

    Leave a comment:


  • dacristoy
    replied
    Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
    Paul seems to believe that we are chosen through belief and not to it:


    -2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
    You lost me... Why is what...

    Leave a comment:


  • phat8594
    replied
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    Why is that? No one says that people come who are not willing to come. The debate usually centers on the question of where willingness comes from, not whether coming follows it.
    Paul seems to believe that we are chosen through belief and not to it:

    13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
    -2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
    Last edited by phat8594; 02-26-2014, 05:03 PM.

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  • RBerman
    replied
    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
    Not elected to faith, elected through faith. "Whosoever will, {Is willing} let him come", This passage is sufficient to deny the premise of unconditional personal election. at the same time it opens the door to the corporate election of all those that are willing to come to Christ through faith...
    Why is that? No one says that people come who are not willing to come. The debate usually centers on the question of where willingness comes from, not whether coming follows it.

    Leave a comment:


  • dacristoy
    replied
    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
    I have always thought that making faith the condition for election, was like no election at all. If you want to know whether you are a part of the elected group of chocolate lovers, then choose chocolate. Why employ the term election? If you want to be a Christian, then choose Jesus. That's fine and I agree. But when the Bible brings in a term like election, it seems odd to me that it wouldn't really have much value beyond describing people who choose Jesus as Lord and Savior. There seems to be no need to confuse the matter by talking about them being elect of God.

    Unless God elected them unto faith or to obtain faith...then it makes sense to me.

    Edit in: And I don't mean that it just makes sense to me, as in logical or rational, but also as in what I read in Scripture.
    Not elected to faith, elected through faith. "Whosoever will, {Is willing} let him come", This passage is sufficient to deny the premise of unconditional personal election. at the same time it opens the door to the corporate election of all those that are willing to come to Christ through faith...

    Leave a comment:


  • GoBahnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by pereynol View Post
    Well, yes---but the old days were over seven years ago, unbelievably! I do think it's good to be impassioned, but there's something to be said for growing wiser as a kind of consolation for getting older....
    I just thot of a new expression "time flies!" What do you think perey? I like it. Kind of catchy. Time flies baby. yeah, that's good GoBa...that's good baby.

    Leave a comment:


  • pereynol
    replied
    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
    seriously...me too. But even if someone were to say something explosive, I would like to believe that I would let it go. Just right it off to where they are currently at in their walk, and hopefully they will grow out of it.

    I say that in theory, but watch me get baited and then run with it, just like the old days.
    Well, yes---but the old days were over seven years ago, unbelievably! I do think it's good to be impassioned, but there's something to be said for growing wiser as a kind of consolation for getting older....

    Leave a comment:


  • GoBahnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by pereynol View Post
    Yeah---somebody probably needs to say something genuinely explosive. As it is, I feel my heart strangely cooled toward debating theology.... ;)
    seriously...me too. But even if someone were to say something explosive, I would like to believe that I would let it go. Just right it off to where they are currently at in their walk, and hopefully they will grow out of it.

    I say that in theory, but watch me get baited and then run with it, just like the old days.

    Leave a comment:


  • pereynol
    replied
    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
    Yep. Hopefully this place can start hoppin again. Whatever happened to chappie and ran ran? Those guys got me "in the flesh" horribly. I'd like to see them again, see if I have matured
    Yeah---somebody probably needs to say something genuinely explosive. As it is, I feel my heart strangely cooled toward debating theology.... ;)

    Leave a comment:


  • GoBahnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Good to see you again also, GB. We go all the way back to 2006. Many have vanished since then.
    Yep. Hopefully this place can start hoppin again. Whatever happened to chappie and ran ran? Those guys got me "in the flesh" horribly. I'd like to see them again, see if I have matured

    Leave a comment:


  • The Remonstrant
    replied
    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
    Hey good to see you Rem. Check in at admissions if ya haven't already. I gotta run, but look forward to seeing you again
    Good to see you again also, GB. We go all the way back to 2006. Many have vanished since then.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoBahnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Question: What does it mean to "make your call and election sure"?

    Answer: It means Arminianism is true.
    Hey good to see you Rem. Check in at admissions if ya haven't already. I gotta run, but look forward to seeing you again

    Leave a comment:


  • The Remonstrant
    replied
    Question: What does it mean to "make your call and election sure"?

    Answer: It means Arminianism is true.

    Leave a comment:


  • pereynol
    replied
    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
    See my admissions thread where I have arranged for mossrose to serve you a welcome back meal. Oh and congrats on your new daughter!!
    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • GoBahnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by pereynol View Post
    I actually haven't debated these kinds of questions in a while (although I do discuss them); my perspective has changed a bit---as has my experience with God. I don't really approach these things exactly the way I used to. Life is going well these days. I have a little three-year-old daughter now----which is pretty interesting since many of my peers have grown kids. Welcome back to you too, GB.
    See my admissions thread where I have arranged for mossrose to serve you a welcome back meal. Oh and congrats on your new daughter!!

    Leave a comment:

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