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Misunderstanding Faith

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  • #16
    You made things more abstract rather than clarifying anything.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      You made things more abstract rather than clarifying anything.
      Psalm 106:21They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt,22wondrous works in the land of Ham, and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

      Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

      Would you consider that the spiritual food was the great rescues God did?
      Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 11:54 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post
        Psalm 106:21They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt,22wondrous works in the land of Ham, and awesome deeds by the Red Sea.

        Would you consider that the spiritual food was the great rescues God did?
        Why are we talking about the Jews in the desert now? You keep on adding new but unrelated ideas into the discussion.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          Why are we talking about the Jews in the desert now? You keep on adding new but unrelated ideas into the discussion.
          Because that is the sequence that is repeated in the walk of faith. Abraham pushed into Egypt by a famine, ditto Israel. Abraham rescued from pharoah, ditto Israel. Abraham allows the great rescues to increase his faith, not so Israel. When tested, Abraham uses his strengthened faith to obey God, not so Israel, refusing to face the Canaanite army. Abraham figured this would somehow fulfill God's promise to make him a blessing to the world, but the time had not come, there was no Rest. Caleb obeyed, entered Rest, and was able to turn Rahab to follow God, fulfilling the promise. Just like Nicodemus was turned to follow God, when he saw Jesus at Rest.

          Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you.10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.

          John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
          Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 12:10 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
            Because that is the sequence that is repeated in the walk of faith. Abraham pushed into Egypt by a famine, ditto Israel. Abraham rescued from pharoah, ditto Israel. Abraham allows the great rescues to increase his faith, not so Israel. When tested, Abraham uses his strengthened faith to obey God, not so Israel, refusing to face the Canaanite army. Abraham figured this would somehow fulfill God's promise to make him a blessing to the world, but the time had not come, there was no Rest. Caleb obeyed, entered Rest, and was able to turn Rahab to follow God, fulfilling the promise.
            The trouble or suffering was not something that lead to faith. These were not requirements to be identified as one with faith. Instead, these were examples of people who persevered because they trusted God. Nor can we assume that God is going to test our faith.

            Are you putting the requirement that someone be tested ... that otherwise they don't trust God?
            Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-11-2020, 12:17 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              The trouble or suffering was not something that lead to faith. These were not requirements to be identified as one with faith. Instead, these were examples of people who persevered because they trusted God.

              Are you putting the requirement that someone be tested ... that otherwise they don't trust God?
              Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the
              LORD, who does all these things.

              How can God increase trust, unless He creates situations where He can display His protection? The rescues are meant to increase faith, so that believers can pick up their cross every day, like Jesus did, be rescued, showing God was with them, so that people like Nicodemus see God's presence in the great works, and are moved to follow Him. This is the Gospel, the Way to enter Rest, the Kingdom of God, by displaying your faith is real, not just lip service, as God showed He required from Abraham, so that when the Rest, God's presence, is manifested, people are moved to follow God, fulfilling the promise to Abraham to make his descendants, identified by faith, blessings to the world.

              You can see I am equating a cross to God pushing Jesus to go out on a limb and do a great work, heal a person or open a difficult Scripture, remove the calamity, light up the darkness. This is risky, God may not provide the solution, and Jesus could have been stoned for being a false prophet, but this assurance is there for those who have entered Rest, by demonstrating real faith.
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 12:27 PM.

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              • #22
                This does not make any sense. Faith is not defined with stages. In Hebrews 11, the examples of faith were used to encourage people to continue assembling, despite the persecution or pressures to appear to be non-Christians. Yet, Hebrews did not show that persecution was required to initially obtain faith or to increase faith. It takes a lot of unrelated verses to make your case.

                You almost sound like those monks who inflicted pain upon themselves with the thought that they would be in better status with God.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  This does not make any sense. Faith is not defined with stages. In Hebrews 11, the examples of faith were used to encourage people to continue assembling, despite the persecution or pressures to appear to be non-Christians. Yet, Hebrews did not show that persecution was required to initially obtain faith or to increase faith. It takes a lot of unrelated verses to make your case.

                  You almost sound like those monks who inflicted pain upon themselves with the thought that they would be in better status with God.

                  Here we see that our promise to believe God constantly must be proved, perfected, fulfilled, lip service must be followed by deeds, action, the first stage followed by the proving stage:

                  James 2:20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

                  You know the last line of Hebrews 11 says the heroes of faith never entered Rest, because Rest appeared only when Christ, the real Rest, was sent. We can enter Rest, and these heroes will join us in the New Humanity in Christ, when they will also become blessings to the world. The cross is offered by God, we must take it up. We can be raised up consistently, if we pass the test.

                  Hebrews 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

                  This Rest is the New Humanity in Christ. We were aliens in the Old Humanity, uncomfortable in the futility of Adam, the country not of our own, with no purpose:

                  Hebrews 11:14Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 12:43 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    You know the last line of Hebrews 11 says the heroes of faith never entered Rest, because Rest appeared only when Christ, the real Rest, was sent. We can enter Rest, and these heroes will join us n Christ, when they will also become blessings to the world. The cross is offered by God, we must take it up. We can be raised up consistently, if we pass the test.

                    Hebrews 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

                    This Rest is the New Humanity in Christ. We were aliens in the Old Humanity, uncomfortable in the futility of Adam, the country not of our own, with no purpose:

                    Hebrews 11:14Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
                    Nah. You have not provided any reasonable description of faith for Christians. Plus your idea is not reasonable where you say that the OT saints have not entered into rest yet. They appear to have been completed through the revealing to the world of Christ as savior.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      Nah. You have not provided any reasonable description of faith for Christians. Plus your idea is not reasonable where you say that the OT saints have not entered into rest yet. They appear to have been completed through the revealing to the world of Christ as savior.
                      Perfected is a synonym for matured, completed:

                      Hebrews 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.


                      I meant they did not immediately enter Rest, even though they passed the test. Scripture says Joshua did not lead anyone into Rest, the Promised Land was only a type, foreshadowing of the New Humanity in Christ, so even after the believers entered Canaan, there still remained a real Rest to be entered.

                      Hebrews 4:
                      4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

                      7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
                      “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
                      DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

                      8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.


                      The cross created the real Rest, the New Humanity in Christ:

                      Quote
                      We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                      https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
                      Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 12:57 PM.

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                      • #26
                        You are talking about the OT saints. They were examples of enduring. The Jews in the first century were having a hard time too and needed reason to assemble. This did not affect the state of their faith.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                          You are talking about the OT saints. They were examples of enduring. The Jews in the first century were having a hard time too and needed reason to assemble. This did not affect the state of their faith.
                          The letter to the Hebrews was written to encourage them to continue in following Christianity, as some were thinking of obeying the judaisers by going back to Judaism, because of persecution. The reason given by the writer was that of the superiority of the New Covenant. None of the OT saints received what was promised, proved by David’s revelation that saints had to wait, there was a Rest yet to be entered, and the reason they were made to wait was that the promise of the New Covenant was better. Besides, persecution meant that they were legitimate children of God, because He would never discipline those who did not belong to Him, because discipline strengthens faith.

                          Hebrews 12:7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

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                          • #28
                            I'm not sure if you are finding a difference from what I just said. The OT saints had to wait for eternal life. Eternal life did not come until Christ Jesus came. The OT prophets were looking forward to the time of Christ.

                            The suffering was not a requirement ... but was a present reality for the first century Jewish followers of Christ. We see in Acts 20 or so that the Jerusalem Jews took on sort of a compromise between giving up and holding on to the Law. It was not ideal but it not exclude them from being Christians.

                            This takes us far away from defining what faith is.

                            What is your religious context that leads you to such a punishing view of faith?
                            Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-12-2020, 12:25 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              I'm not sure if you are finding a difference from what I just said. The OT saints had to wait for eternal life. Eternal life did not come until Christ Jesus came. The OT prophets were looking forward to the time of Christ.

                              The suffering was not a requirement ... but was a present reality for the first century Jewish followers of Christ. We see in Acts 20 or so that the Jerusalem Jews took on sort of a compromise between giving up and holding on to the Law. It was not ideal but it not exclude them from being Christians.

                              This takes us far away from defining what faith is.

                              What is your religious context that leads you to such a punishing view of faith?
                              Scripture that tell us that the vocal commitment to be loyal must be proved with a deed commitment:

                              Hebrews 3:15As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."

                              ......

                              Hebrews 4:4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

                              7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
                              “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
                              DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

                              8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

                              ......

                              James 2:20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.


                              The test is hard, as can be seen in the case of Abraham and Israel. The former was asked to sacrifice his son, Israel was asked to risk their lives by facing the Amorites and Canaanites. Abraham obeyed, and was confirmed as a member of God’s People, and was kept waiting until Rest came, the New Humanity in Christ, which blesses the world, by turning it to God, by manifesting God’s union with humanity, seen in His rescue. Israel forgot their exposure to the revelation of God’s great works, instead allowed the fear of physical danger to weaken her loyalty, and failed to enter Rest. Since the test is hard, we must use the edifying work of the revelation of God’s great works to build up our faith, must keep our eyes on God, and not on the danger seen in the calamity, must not be like Peter, who, like Israel, only saw the waves, and forgot the great works of God.

                              Acts 19:4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

                              5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.


                              Those who taste the Holy Spirit must not fall away, crucifying Christ all over again in the process:

                              Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


                              This test is unavoidable for whoever claims to be loyal to God. That is why the rest of Jerusalem was afraid to join the disciples:

                              Acts 5:13Although the people regarded them highly, no one else dared to join them.

                              If salvation was the easy thing you think it is, the people would not have hesitated, right? No hardship, no test, no judgment, just believe.

                              Even those who thought they could pass the test, to gain the privilege of being blessings to the world, had to check if they were ready, else they would be like the person who boasted he would build a tower and failed, because he did not have enough money. Jesus said if anyone saw the test approaching, and they felt that they did not have enough strength, that person should ask for terms of peace.

                              Ananias and Sapphira were tested and failed. To hide their failure to live up to their boast, their over confidence, they lied to the Holy Spirit, claiming that they had sold everything, turned from being loyal to possessions, to serving God. Their lie was expressed in their telling the church that they had indeed left serving mammon.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 09-12-2020, 02:04 AM.

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                              • #30
                                You are making add odd view of Christianity where flagellation is key to justification.

                                You emphasize Hebrews which makes full sense as the effort to restore Hebrew Christians to fellowship. You end up using Hebrews as a call to being persecuted for the sake of being persecuted.

                                Where does your perspective originate? Have you become a monk who partakes of flagellation?

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