Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Misunderstanding Faith

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Abraham claimed he trusted God. This was enough to justify him, receive God's recognition of him as his servant. Because of this he was given faith building revelation from the Holy Spirit, in the form of rescue from King Abhimelech and Pharoah. Abraham kept these great works of God in his heart, so that when God wanted to check if his trust was real and strong, not just words, lip service, Abraham passed the test, and he was sanctified, set apart from the rest of the world, called God's friend. However, there was no real People of God, Promised Land, Jerusalem from above, New Humanity in Christ for him to enter, because the Person who could clean the Old Humanity had not been sent yet.

    When Christ's blood cleansed the Land, on Calvary, it was a type of how His blood really cleansed the Body of Christ, the New People of God, which Abraham could now enter, because only together with us could Abraham be made perfect, be in the Kingdom, the eternal Garden, and walk with God, like Adam did, in order to do the work God created humanity to do, to turn people to God, by manifesting His presence, just like Jesus did, drawing people like Nicodemus to Him, when He was lifted up, raised from the earth, while picking up the cross, everyday, in doing great works or explaining difficult Scripture:

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon (near) you.

    Hebrews 11:39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

    John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    Joshua 2:8Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, 9and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you. 10“For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11“When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.


    So you agree that even though Joshua and Caleb and the second generation of Israelites passed the test, they never received what was promised, to be blessings to the world, because the Promised Land was only a type?

    Do you agree that when David in the Spirit said tha there was yet a Rest to be entered, he meant that the New Man in Christ was in the future, yet to be entered?
    This is too hard to figure out what you are asking. The perfection of Abraham came in Christ and in the people justified in Christ -- this seems to be the perfection of what was promised to Abraham.

    I don't understand the idea you saying about Christ's blood. You have put too many concepts into the sentence and it is hard to find what parts go together.

    Comment


    • #77
      Would you agree that those who were enlightened were those who drank spiritual waters and ate spiritual food from the Rock, and the Rock was Christ, Christ being synechdoche for cross and resurrection, picturised in thirst and quenching, famine and feeding, just like the bread from heaven fed to Chorazin and Bethsaida, and both instances failed to prove the trust they claimed to have in God?

      Numbers 13:25When they returned from spying out the land, at the end of forty days, 26they proceeded to come to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation of the sons of Israel in the wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; and they brought back word to them and to all the congregation and showed them the fruit of the land. 27Thus they told him, and said, “We went in to the land where you sent us; and it certainly does flow with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28“Nevertheless, the people who live in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large; and moreover, we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29“Amalek is living in the land of the Negev and the Hittites and the Jebusites and the Amorites are living in the hill country, and the Canaanites are living by the sea and by the side of the Jordan.”

      30Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “We should by all means go up and take possession of it, for we will surely overcome it.” 31But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us.” 32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33“There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”


      Matthew 11:21"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

      Acts 5:
      1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.


      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post
        Would you agree that those who were enlightened were those who drank spiritual waters and ate spiritual food from the Rock, and the Rock was Christ, Christ being synechdoche for cross and resurrection, picturised in thirst and quenching, famine and feeding, just like the bread from heaven fed to Chorazin and Bethsaida, and both instances failed to prove the trust they claimed to have in God?

        Numbers 13:25When they returned from spying out the land, at the end of forty days, 26they proceeded to come to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation of the sons of Israel in the wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; and they brought back word to them and to all the congregation and showed them the fruit of the land. 27Thus they told him, and said, “We went in to the land where you sent us; and it certainly does flow with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28“Nevertheless, the people who live in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large; and moreover, we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29“Amalek is living in the land of the Negev and the Hittites and the Jebusites and the Amorites are living in the hill country, and the Canaanites are living by the sea and by the side of the Jordan.”

        30Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “We should by all means go up and take possession of it, for we will surely overcome it.” 31But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us.” 32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33“There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”


        Matthew 11:21"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

        Acts 5:
        1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

        you are bringing in too many unrelated items together. I can't follow your point.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

          you are bringing in too many unrelated items together. I can't follow your point.
          They all support my view. However, it's okay, some people have a harder time understanding. They need to be ministered to more.

          Let's stick to one aspect: how to be accepted by God, first as follower, servant, justified, the correct confession heard, finally as friend, sanctified, seen to be clean.

          Why was Judas called unclean?

          John 13:9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!” 10 Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you. 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.
          Last edited by footwasher; 10-14-2020, 01:28 AM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            They all support my view. However, it's okay, some people have a harder time understanding. They need to be ministered to more.

            Let's stick to one aspect: how to be accepted by God, first as follower, servant, justified, the correct confession heard, finally as friend, sanctified, seen to be clean.

            Why was Judas called unclean?

            John 13:9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!” 10 Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you. 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.
            Your copy and paste includes an excessive number of links to the Strongs number.

            Jesus could be said to have purified the disciples through his teaching but Judas rejected the teaching. You are getting farther from the discussion.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

              Your copy and paste includes an excessive number of links to the Strongs number.

              Jesus could be said to have purified the disciples through his teaching but Judas rejected the teaching. You are getting farther from the discussion.
              The strengthening of faith was through baptism, which led to faith strengthening revelation being given to them. The rejection was of the great works, just like Bethsaida and Chorazin, leading to not having a change of mindset, repentance. This shows that faith, is a responsibility of the one who receives the revelations.

              This is a discussion about faith, so it is very relevant to the topic. You are supporting my view, in inferring that the purification did not work for Judas: he rejected it. In other words, faith is not a gift. It is something which originates in the one who receives the revelation. He is responsible to allow it to strengthen his faith, or to allow fear to over rule, leading to failure when tested.
              Last edited by footwasher; 10-14-2020, 02:18 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                Your copy and paste includes an excessive number of links to the Strongs number.

                Jesus could be said to have purified the disciples through his teaching but Judas rejected the teaching. You are getting farther from the discussion.
                We know that the purification that you are referring to is the performing of difficult tasks and the explaining of difficult Scripture to the disciples. Those who allowed these great works to strengthen their trust in God were seen as clean: all the doubt and distrust had been washed away, dependence/trust on worldly resources changed to dependence on God. This is seen in the clean, like Peter, who dropped his nets, and followed Jesus, and not seen in Judas, who stole from the group funds.

                From this we can see that baptism was given to any body who used words to declare loyalty to Jesus, leading to the giving of revelations that strengthened that loyalty, because it was important to have faith when accepted into the Kingdom of God. Imagine entering the Kingdom and not being able to do difficult tasks, pick up a cross, because of being afraid that God might not save. It was important that faith was expressed, used, else the gift of the Kingdom would have been wasted on a person who could not use it to gather God's sheep, to draw them to God when the doer of the works was raised up by God. The only way to ensure that the person's faith was real was by testing it, as Abraham and Israel were tested.

                John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                  We know that the purification that you are referring to is the performing of difficult tasks and the explaining of difficult Scripture to the disciples. Those who allowed these great works to strengthen their trust in God were seen as clean: all the doubt and distrust had been washed away, dependence/trust on worldly resources changed to dependence on God. This is seen in the clean, like Peter, who dropped his nets, and followed Jesus, and not seen in Judas, who stole from the group funds.

                  From this we can see that baptism was given to any body who used words to declare loyalty to Jesus, leading to the giving of revelations that strengthened that loyalty, because it was important to have faith when accepted into the Kingdom of God. Imagine entering the Kingdom and not being able to do difficult tasks, pick up a cross, because of being afraid that God might not save. It was important that faith was expressed, used, else the gift of the Kingdom would have been wasted on a person who could not use it to gather God's sheep, to draw them to God when the doer of the works was raised up by God. The only way to ensure that the person's faith was real was by testing it, as Abraham and Israel were tested.

                  John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
                  Who is the "we" that you are talking about? This is getting into weird concepts that are not where scripture leads us.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                    Who is the "we" that you are talking about? This is getting into weird concepts that are not where scripture leads us.
                    What is the character defect of Judas that makes him unclean? He is still serving mammon, he is still worrying about self preservation, like Israel in the wilderness, like Ananias and Sapphira, like Simon Magus, unlike Abraham, unlike Caleb. All the great works he saw never caused repentance. You think purification is from immoral living? It is from worrying about self to -> being concerned about others.

                    The counterpoint to unclean is wanting to bless the world. The idea of blessing the world to the Pharisees was to be blessed so that everybody would want to be Jews. That was THEIR idea of Israel being a Light to the Nations.

                    Luke 16:14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

                    All the Israelites in the desert worried about was their stomachs. Their idea of being blessings to the world was being in the Land flowing with milk and honey, so that other nations would be jealous and want to be children of Abraham, would want to convert. Their hearing was selective.

                    God said the Promised Land was not like Egypt, which was not dependent on God, being next to a perennial river, the Nile. It depended on God to send rain. If the population of Israel did great works, difficult things like following the Law, for example giving back land collateral to borrowers after the Jubilee year, even when the loan was not repaid(!), God would make sure the Land provided for their needs. This was how other Nations would turn to God. They would see life depended not on being devoted to concerns of self preservation, but by being close to God, walking with Him, by being in His Kingdom. The opposite is being separated from God, death, like Adam was separated.

                    The leaven of God is that the believer's life is not dependent on their looking out for Number One. It is dependent on seeking out the Kingdom of God first, working to be close to God, to become blessings to the world. Contrast that with the leaven/teaching of the Pharisees:

                    Mark 8:
                    14
                    And they had forgotten to take bread, and did not have more than one loaf in the boat with them.
                    And He was giving orders to them, saying, “Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”
                    They





                    began
                    to discuss with one another





                    the fact
                    that they had no bread.
                    And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you discuss





                    the fact
                    that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart?
                    “H
                    AVING EYES
                    ,
                    DO YOU NOT SEE
                    ? A
                    ND HAVING EARS
                    ,
                    DO YOU NOT HEAR
                    ? And do you not remember,
                    when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?” They said to Him, “Twelve.”
                    “When





                    I broke
                    the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken pieces did you pick up?” And they said to Him, “Seven.”
                    And He was saying to them, “Do you not yet understand?”


                    ...
                    Luke 12:
                    1Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

                    ....
                    22And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. 23“For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24“Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! 25“And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life’s span? 26“If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? 27“Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 28“But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29“And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30“For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31“But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

                    By the way, what is the Scriptural error that you feel is being committed in this interpretation? Why do you feel that purification is not about Jesus performing signs that show man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of the mouth of God? Why do you feel it is about Jesus teaching the disciples to be moral beings with moral lessons and that was how he purified them?

                    Deuteronomy 8:3"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
                    Last edited by footwasher; 10-14-2020, 04:53 PM.

                    Comment

                    Related Threads

                    Collapse

                    Topics Statistics Last Post
                    Started by Kenneth Roberson, 11-08-2020, 09:37 AM
                    9 responses
                    109 views
                    0 likes
                    Last Post footwasher  
                    Started by footwasher, 11-03-2020, 01:24 AM
                    19 responses
                    94 views
                    0 likes
                    Last Post footwasher  
                    Working...
                    X