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Misunderstanding Faith

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  • Misunderstanding Faith

    A word may have different meanings. And in our discussions, as well is in our common conversations, we usually misunderstand common words, which leads to futile exchanges of ideas. Such happens when we discuss about the love of God, and the Faith of God. Many assume that they knew about God's love, but their sense of judgment itself implies that they are misunderstanding the love of God. The same when dealing with Faith.

    It is a common misunderstanding of many that Abraham was justified by his faith IN God, rather than simply saying by his faith. There is a difference in saying that Abraham is justified by his faith IN God, to saying Abraham is justified by his faith OF of God. Faith IN speaks of Abraham's will to trust which must be TOTALLY proven by works. Faith OF speaks of Abraham's understanding of the Godhead which MAY be proven by his works. Many Christians focus on Abraham's faith IN God as the true faith, which they end up confused about works and faith. Faith IN speaks requires to put in works what we believe, ending a faith that is OF works.

    The faith OF Abraham is really the focus of his salvation. And the faith Of Abraham will consequentially lead to having faith IN God. And when people assumes the focus of Abraham's salvation, the miss to understand the importance of having knowledge and understand of the Godhead.

    There are a lot of people who are DECEIVED with their faith IN God, do we justify their faith IN God enough for their salvation?

    I believe no. We require understanding.

    Sadly, it is common that many vouch their salvation in their faith IN God. And the worst consequence is that, their confidence in their faith IN God, makes them to justify to not fear their ignorance of Godhead.
    ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
    ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
    https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    Faith in its essential meaning is trust. God does not have to trust himself. Paul's example in Romans 4 is that Abe trusted God in the promises made to Abe.

    The critical element here is upon what (or whom) Abe placed his trust. Our ability to have this faith results from the gift through the hearing of the gospel (Rom 10:17). As such, faith is not a work ... it is a change that happens when the sheep hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      Faith in its essential meaning is trust.
      I agree. But WHAT faith are we talking about? Faith IN God is about trust, as well as our faith OF God. When I speak of the faith OF God, I speak of a form of knowledge and understanding, which I refer as WISDOM. Wisdom is a form of trust also.


      God does not have to trust himself.
      NOT NECESSARILY! In exercising wisdom, we put trust in ourselves that it is. There is no direct evidence when we speak of wisdom. It is a qualitative judgment. Though we claim to be right, yet it is a form of trust that we are right.

      Paul's example in Romans 4 is that Abe trusted God in the promises made to Abe.
      What "trust" are you referring to? Abraham's faith IN God, or his faith Of God? What I believe is that it is referring of Abraham's faith OF God.

      The critical element here is upon what (or whom) Abe placed his trust.
      So, are you then referring of Abraham's faith IN God?

      Do you then believe that those who are deceived will be saved because they have faith IN God?


      Our ability to have this faith results from the gift through the hearing of the gospel (Rom 10:17). As such, faith is not a work ... it is a change that happens when the sheep hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him.
      So here you are saying that faith IN God results FROM the gift of having knowledge of the Godhead; since knowing the gospel is knowing the Godhead in Christ(2Cor 4:3-6).

      Since faith IN God is MERE result from the gift of having hearing of the gospel, or having knowledge of the godhead, am I right to say that having knowledge of the godhead is really the critical element?
      Last edited by FarEastBird; 09-03-2020, 01:15 AM.
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
        I agree. But WHAT faith are we talking about? Faith IN God is about trust, as well as our faith OF God. When I speak of the faith OF God, I speak of a form of knowledge and understanding, which I refer as WISDOM. Wisdom is a form of trust also.

        NOT NECESSARILY! In exercising wisdom, we put trust in ourselves that it is. There is no direct evidence when we speak of wisdom. It is a qualitative judgment. Though we claim to be right, yet it is a form of trust that we are right.

        What "trust" are you referring to? Abraham's faith IN God, or his faith Of God? What I believe is that it is referring of Abraham's faith OF God.
        You would have to give examples of what you are talking about. Maybe the examples would clarify what you are saying. Nor can I figure out what you are saying about wisdom and how that relates to faith.

        Paul does not talk about having a wisdom which justifies. He talks about faith which yields justification.

        So, are you then referring of Abraham's faith IN God?

        Do you then believe that those who are deceived will be saved because they have faith IN God?

        So here you are saying that faith IN God results FROM the gift of having knowledge of the Godhead; since knowing the gospel is knowing the Godhead in Christ(2Cor 4:3-6).

        Since faith IN God is MERE result from the gift of having hearing of the gospel, or having knowledge of the godhead, am I right to say that having knowledge of the godhead is really the critical element?
        In my explanation of faith, it is impossible to trust God in his being and his word unless someone has been mystically changed. (The fallen nature of man does not trust God.) So, in this sense it is impossible to have trust toward God and be deceived. If I mix the metaphors of 2Cor 4 and Rom 5, we cannot gain hearing of the gospel while also being veiled to it.

        If the gospel is shared with someone and he does not hear or understand the gospel (the voice of the shepherd), then he does not come to faith. However, the person that is changed in his heart upon hearing the gospel, he has heard and come to faith. He trusts that the message is of God. This trust goes against human nature and represents the point where we are born again.

        Mind you, I am talking just with respect to faith (and being justified), not to the prospect of holding every doctrinal understanding perfectly. We can be deceived in doctrines but the Christian inclination is toward the true knowledge, especially on critical areas.


        By the way, I have no idea how 2 Cor 4:3-6 relates to this discussion.
        Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-03-2020, 02:21 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          You would have to give examples of what you are talking about. Maybe the examples would clarify what you are saying. Nor can I figure out what you are saying about wisdom and how that relates to faith.
          The FAITH that saves that I refer to is the faith OF Christ. Just as Jesus said in John 17:3, eternal life is to know the true God and Jesus Christ. Christ came and have given us understanding of the true God(1John 5:20). It was Christ who knew God and revealed it unto the elect(John 1:18). And this knowledge of revelation of the Godhead is through knowing the mystery of the gospel of Christ (2Cor 4:3-6). The gospel of Christ that is preached unto us is in the form of wisdom(1Cor 2:6-7). So then the faith that savesthat I refer to is in the form of WISDOM.


          Paul does not talk about having a wisdom which justifies. He talks about faith which yields justification.
          Having the WISDOM justifies that we have the “faith that saves.” That is the wisdom that yields salvation.



          Having faith IN God in the form of will to trust cannot save. Many have faith IN God but lack the knowledge of Godhead, and thus they are not save.




          In my explanation of faith, it is impossible to trust God in his being and his word unless someone has been mystically changed.
          The possibility to trust God in his being and his word”indeed comes through being changed.” And this “changeis about putting on the image of God, which is putting own the like mind of God(Col 3:10; Eph 4:22-24). Further, it is the change by which we can avail salvation(Gal 6:15).



          How then could we have the like mind of God except we know of the Godhead!This knowledge of the Godhead is the foundation of our faith that saves. We trust in what we know and understand about the Godhead. Unlike those with faith who simply use their will to trust,they believe without a true grasp of what they are believing or of what they are putting their trust on. But those who trust with the knowledge and understanding of the Godhead are sure and are believing that God really is.




          (The fallen nature of man does not trust God.)
          This is where we need to clearly distinguish what kind of trust are we referring of.



          When it comes to the kind of trust in references to our knowledge and understanding of who God really is, (or the knowledge of Godhead), then the lost will never have such kind of faith. Knowledge and understanding of the Godhead is not given to the lost.



          But when it comes to the will to trust, even the Devil “believe” and even trembles. Even the Jewsmentioned in Rom 10:1-3, they were not enlightened but they have the love of God. Even the pagans trust and will give their lives for God, except that they are ignorant of who God really is. And as shown in the book of the Acts of the apostles by Paul, even the Greeks are serving God, except they are ignorant of who He really is(Acts 17:22-28).



          And when it comes to the Arminian perspective it gets more complicated about how could they lose salvation. For how those who were enlightened, would come to disbelieve something they knew is “true”? How could one know the “true” God, and then deny it? Or simply, who would deny what he already knew as true? Except a person is mentally sick, or not really grasping it, a person cannot go against what he already know as true. The Arminian view that one can lose faith, whether it be faith that is in the will, or faith in terms of knowledge and understanding, will have a problematic issue on the assurance of his salvation.




          So, in this sense it is impossible to have trust toward God and be deceived. If I mix the metaphors of 2Cor 4 and Rom 5, we cannot gain hearing of the gospel while also being veiled to it.

          If the gospel is shared with someone and he does not hear or understand the gospel (the voice of the shepherd), then he does not come to faith. However, the person that is changed in his heart upon hearing the gospel, he has heard and come to faith. He trusts that the message is of God. This trust goes against human nature and represents the point where we are born again.
          If we believe in a faith that which frees us from deception, then we must be referring of a faith that speaks of knowledge and understanding, not of the faith that is based on the will to trust.

          Mind you, I am talking just with respect to faith (and being justified), not to the prospect of holding every doctrinal understanding perfectly. We can be deceived in doctrines but the Christian inclination is toward the true knowledge, especially on critical areas.

          “Understanding perfectly” is an issue for it is to resolve the “critical” areas of the true knowledge of Godhead. The goal of every Christian is to attain the knowledge of God:



          Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” (Eph 2:13-14)



          Of course, I am not talking about becoming omniscient when it comes to possessing the knowledge of God. But of having the knowledge enough for us to understand the Godhead. It is attaining wisdom, which speaks of the quality of mind rather than of the quantity of what we know.



          Now, if you can still be deceived by doctrines, then you cannot have any assurance of salvation because all doctrines are to support the doctrine of salvation. I’d say that your “faith” is shaky, and does not really give you assurance of your salvation.



          The faith that I speak of the knowledge of the Godhead, which in possessing knowledge of the Godhead means possessing knowledge of God’s salvation, knowing and understanding, and is sure of it.


          ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
          ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
          https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't get the significance or meaning of "will to trust" So much of your argument is built around that concept that I just stopped reading. TL;DR

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              Paul does not talk about having a wisdom which justifies. He talks about faith which yields justification.

              In my explanation of faith, it is impossible to trust God in his being and his word unless someone has been mystically changed. (The fallen nature of man does not trust God.) So, in this sense it is impossible to have trust toward God and be deceived. If I mix the metaphors of 2Cor 4 and Rom 5, we cannot gain hearing of the gospel while also being veiled to it.

              If the gospel is shared with someone and he does not hear or understand the gospel (the voice of the shepherd), then he does not come to faith. However, the person that is changed in his heart upon hearing the gospel, he has heard and come to faith. He trusts that the message is of God. This trust goes against human nature and represents the point where we are born again.

              Mind you, I am talking just with respect to faith (and being justified), not to the prospect of holding every doctrinal understanding perfectly. We can be deceived in doctrines but the Christian inclination is toward the true knowledge, especially on critical areas.

              Hebrews 4:2“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

              In your view, what was the gospel that was preached to Israel?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                Hebrews 4:2“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

                In your view, what was the gospel that was preached to Israel?
                Have you not heard the gospel yet?

                Not all that hear the gospel are changed by it. We have many examples of that at tweb.

                The description by Paul of the Hebrews, “But they have not all obeyed the gospel. ” (Rom 10:16) In the terms I mentioned earlier, they did not gain "hearing" from the gospel. The sound came to them but their brain did not hear the message.
                Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-10-2020, 10:22 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  Have you not heard the gospel yet?

                  Not all that hear the gospel are changed by it. We have many examples of that at tweb.

                  The description by Paul of the Hebrews, “But they have not all obeyed the gospel. ” (Rom 10:16) In the terms I mentioned earlier, they did not gain "hearing" from the gospel. The sound came to them but their brain did not hear the message.
                  Would you consider that the gospel was, and will always be, that God can protect? And it, drinking from Christ, seeing God create calamity and then resurrecting, did not profit Israel, did not build up their faith, like it built up the faith of Caleb, who became born again, so that when asked to obey God, he did, and God continued to protect him against the Canaanites? Just like it, by protecting Abraham from Pharoah, helped build up Abraham's faith, so that he too could perfect his faith in obeying God?

                  Numbers 14:24"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 09-10-2020, 11:15 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I cannot tell what you are saying. Certainly there were people who trusted (had faith toward) God and God worked throughout their lives. He does that for us today.

                    However, our trust toward God comes at a transition point, a mystical change, from our fallen human rejection of God. How does your view differ from that foundation, that change when one has heard the voice of their Shepherd?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      I cannot tell what you are saying. Certainly there were people who trusted (had faith toward) God and God worked throughout their lives. He does that for us today.

                      However, our trust toward God comes at a transition point, a mystical change, from our fallen human rejection of God. How does your view differ from that foundation, that change when one has heard the voice of their Shepherd?
                      Your view implies God changes us mystically, so that some are enabled to believe in Christ. My view is that God tells us He can protect, through creating calamities and then rescuing, like He did with Abraham and Israel. When we agree, receive baptism, He gives us the Holy Spirit, which gives even more proof.

                      Isaiah 45:7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

                      God caused calamity for Abraham and Israel, then He rescued. This is called hearing the Gospel, drinking from the Rock:

                      John 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

                      1 Corinthians 10:3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

                      It was given when they were baptised into Him, the calamities and the rescues, was supposed to increase their faith, trust, so that when God checked to see if their promise to trust Him, again when they were baptised into Him, was real, they could pass, so that He could make them ready to enter the real rest:

                      James 2:21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

                      Hebrews 11:39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 09-10-2020, 11:54 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't see how your verses relate to the topic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                          I don't see how your verses relate to the topic.
                          What exactly was the spiritual food Israel received?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            What exactly was the spiritual food Israel received?
                            What's your issue?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              What's your issue?
                              The word Christ is synechdoche for calamity and rescue. The Gospel is God will always protect, so pick up the Cross daily and see Resurrection, daily, so that people like Rahab and Nicodemus will be drawn to God. This is eternal life, which fulfills God's purpose for His People, to be a blessing to the world, the life which results in treasure being stored up in heaven. It is not "Believe Jesus is the Messiah and go to Heaven".

                              John 3:2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

                              John 12:32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

                              1 Corinthians 15:1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

                              3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, b and then to the Twelve.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 09-11-2020, 02:28 AM.

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