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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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God's Love and Allowing Evil

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

    Does true righteousness lead to salvation, or does salvation lead to righteousness?

    If salvation leads to righteousness, then the righteousness is a result of salvation which is the result of God's action so it is not the action of the person so is not true righteousness.
    Only God is righteous. People are wicked by nature.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      Only God is righteous. People are wicked by nature.
      The argument is not about people being wicked. It's about whether they can choose right or wrong.

      Gen 4:6
      Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?7“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
      Last edited by footwasher; 01-01-2021, 01:29 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        The argument is not about people being wicked. It's about whether they can choose right or wrong.

        Gen 4:6
        Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?7“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
        You cannot choose a spiritual right or wrong until after the new birth. God forced the Jews under threat of death to obey the law. That is not a change of heart. And the law could not save. Can the gospel save if you turn it into law? That's what free will does but it does not save.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
          Some people make the claim that if God allows someone to be raped or tortured, then He does not really love that person. They say that according to 1 Corinthians 13, love is kind. They go on to say that if God allows someone to be raped or tortured, then He is not kind to person. Therefore, God does not love that person. The assumption is that if God loves a person, then He would not allow someone else to do evil to that person. How do you respond to this?
          STM it is unanswerable, Defences of God - but how can God be God, if He needs defenders ? - only work if God’s moral character is lower than that of a half-decent human being, Or, God is defended, only if He is, in effect, portrayed as an abusive parent. The God of the Gospels is no better than the God of parts of the OT - the logic of the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant makes nonsense of the idea that God is a Father to His People. Fathers do not hand their children over to the torturers for a single failure to forgive. But according to Jesus, God, as represented by the cruel king in the parable, does that. A God as pitiless as that, for so little reason, is very bad news.

          The God of Classical Christian Theism is an impressive construction, but does not do what is claimed for Him. This Almighty and Good Saviour God let millions of His Chosen People, whom He never forsakes, die like cattle. What sort of Only and Almighty God is capable of working a few miracles, but is not up to saving millions of Jews ? What is so sickening is, that the God Who let millions of Jews be gassed, incurs all the mockery and scorn Elijah directed against Baal in 1 Kings 18. Why call God Saviour, when God does not save ? If Christians are to be rebuked for failing to show their faith by the evidence of their works, it introduces massive cognitive dissonance to say, of a God Who deserts His People to their enemies, that He saves His People. Why should God be praised, when a human being who acted similarly would be severely, and surely rightly, blamed as loveless, faithless, and callous ? And how is it not lying, to call an Unsaving God a Saviour ?

          An alternative course, is to argue that human agape-love is a totally worthless guide to God’s Love. That there is no analogy, of any kind or degree, in all creation, to God’s Love. But, if human love bears no relation to God’s Love - how can we have any certainty that what God regards as love, we would not regard as demonic hate ? If there is no slightest connection or relation between God’s agape and ours, not the dimmest reflection in creation of God’s Agape, then it becomes impossible to distinguish God from the devil. After all, parts of the Bible show that exterminating people, far from being forbidden by God, is explicitly commanded by God.

          I don’t think talk of God’s Love means anything, because, if that Love is active in the world, it seems to be totally amoral. For it is - apparently - compatible with doing good to the needy; but also, with allowing tyrants and their regimes to prosper. If God loves both Xi Jin Ping, and also, his Muslim & Christian & Falun Gong victims - just as God loved both Mao, and the millions tortured and murdered by him - how does that not empty God’s Love of all meaning ? Christian love is supposed to make a difference, for the better, to people - why does God’s Love get a pass, with making no such difference ? STM that we have every right to expect a far higher moral standard of God, and that Christians have been far too reluctant to ask questions about the yawning gap between what God is allegedly like, and how in actuality He seems to behave.

          The free-will defence is useless, because if God was active in - say - the downfall of Nazism, He was clearly not respecting the freewill of the Nazis, but was acting in opposition to whatever intentions they had of supporting Nazism, They may have wanted a 1000-year Reich - God did not give them one. Parts of the Bible support compatibilism - & parts of the Bible show God ignoring what people want, and thwarting it instead. God thwarts people’s wills, therefore, the continuance of tyrannies cannot be accounted for (as sometimes it is) by saying that God is respecting the tyrants’ freedom of will.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hornet View Post

            I would agree with that.
            That is assuming that the rapist does not beat you up and possibly half kill you - perhaps leaving permanent damage - and then return to raping his victim.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              You cannot choose a spiritual right or wrong until after the new birth. God forced the Jews under threat of death to obey the law. That is not a change of heart. And the law could not save. Can the gospel save if you turn it into law? That's what free will does but it does not save.
              Cain wasn't born again, yet God asked him to choose righteousness.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                Please stick to the subject. Did God give the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, which Paul calls receiving the Holy Spirit, to ALL the Israelites, or not:

                Gal 3:1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
                But what did they hear? From Jesus in particular? Did he not say "Go and make disciples, baptise them, teach them to do all that I commanded"?
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  But what did they hear? From Jesus in particular? Did he not say "Go and make disciples, baptise them, teach them to do all that I commanded"?
                  They heard there was a job available, to complete/subdue creation, with returns that would not rust or perish, getting which was possible if they undertook a training course, which in turn could be entered, if they believed it existed.

                  Those who so believed, heard with faith, received the training, the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, like Abraham and Caleb did. The Holy Spirit led them out into the wilderness, put them in danger, and then rescued them. This edification is called 'bread from heaven'.

                  Acts 19.5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
                  ...

                  1 Cor 14.4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 07-25-2021, 11:27 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    They heard there was a job available, to complete/subdue creation, with returns that would not rust or perish, getting which was possible if they undertook a training course, which in turn could be entered, if they believed it existed.

                    Those who so believed, heard with faith, received the training, the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, like Abraham and Caleb did. The Holy Spirit led them out into the wilderness, put them in danger, and then rescued them. This edification is called 'bread from heaven'.

                    Acts 19.5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
                    ...

                    1 Cor 14.4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
                    It's a good start. What did the training include, of primary (initial) importance -
                    training in R------------
                    perhaps?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      It's a good start. What did the training include, of primary (initial) importance -
                      training in R------------






                      perhaps?
                      Training in believing God would save when we pick up the crosses He gives us. Didn't Abraham and Caleb drink from this Rock and believe, change, meta noia, have a different spirit, become different people?

                      On the job (after entering the Kingdom) God would give them crosses, prepared in advance, for them to pickup, walk in them, and rescue them. In doing so, lifting them up from the earth, people would want to come to them for lighting the path to God:

                      Ep 2.10For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.

                      John 9.1Now as Jesus was passing by, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who committed the sin that caused him to be born blind, this man or his parents?” 3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but he was born blind so that the acts of God may be revealed through what happens to him. 4We must perform the deeds of the one who sent me as long as it is daytime. Night is coming when no one can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

                      John 12.32If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me.”

                      John 3.1There was a man named Nicodemus who was a Pharisee and a Jewish leader. 2One night he went to Jesus and said, “Rabbi, we know that God has sent you to teach us. You could not work these miracles, unless God were with you.”

                      3Jesus replied, “I tell you for certain that you must be born from above+ before you can see God's kingdom
                      Last edited by footwasher; 07-26-2021, 12:04 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Cain wasn't born again, yet God asked him to choose righteousness.
                        Most under the law were not saved but the law demanded of them to not steal, not murder, etc.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          Most under the law were not saved but the law demanded of them to not steal, not murder, etc.
                          You said those who are not borne again cannot choose spiritually right or wrong choices. I said God asked Cain to choose, even though he was not born again.

                          The sequence is:
                          Hear the Gospel with faith, receive the Holy Spirit.
                          Hear the Holy Spirit with faith, enter Rest.
                          Galatians 3.1-5

                          Hear the Gospel, that we can be blessings if we do a training course, agree and receive the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, are born again, and by being born again, pass the test and are indeed made blessings, reach the destination, enter Rest.

                          Caleb heard, had faith, received the training from the Holy Spirit, was put in danger and rescued.

                          Caleb learned, had faith, had a different spirit, changed from being a fearful follower to a courageous leader, had had a different spirit was born again, passed when asked to face the Amalekites, could enter Rest. Israel failed. Later, so did Chorazin and Bethesda, when tested.

                          Num 14.20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

                          24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.
                          ...

                          John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

                          3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a
                          Last edited by footwasher; 07-26-2021, 01:45 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            You said those who are not borne again cannot choose spiritually right or wrong choices. I said God asked Cain to choose, even though he was not born again.

                            The sequence is:
                            Hear the Gospel with faith, receive the Holy Spirit.
                            Hear the Holy Spirit with faith, enter Rest.
                            Galatians 3.1-5

                            Hear the Gospel, that we can be blessings if we do a training course, agree and receive the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, are born again, and by being born again, pass the test and are indeed made blessings, reach the destination, enter Rest.

                            Caleb heard, had faith, received the training from the Holy Spirit, was put in danger and rescued.

                            Caleb learned, had faith, had a different spirit, changed from being a fearful follower to a courageous leader, had had a different spirit was born again, passed when asked to face the Amalekites, could enter Rest. Israel failed. Later, so did Chorazin and Bethesda, when tested.

                            Num 14.20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

                            24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.
                            ...

                            John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

                            3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a
                            “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

                            You are not aware of the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers. And still, see your seriously flawed human righteousness as your only hope.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

                              You are not aware of the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers. And still, see your seriously flawed human righteousness as your only hope.
                              Erasmus chose imputatum for his Latin translation of the NT instead of the reputatum of the Vulgate. It was a mistake!

                              Abraham's action was considered, had a reputation of righteousness, because it was really righteous. It was not inferred to be righteous. And God justified him, accepted him into His family, His People.

                              Now, Abraham didn't have to be morally perfect. All he had to do was to be loyal, which is perfectly within the capabilities of all humans! Remember, he just had to agree with God! Not a difficult thing to do, yet it was enough.

                              Getting into Rest was difficult, though. He had to remember God's great works, in saving him from Pharaoh and King Abhimelek. This was what made him born again, a different man from the one who 'worked' to protect himself by lying to Pharaoh.

                              Israel never learned from being rescued from Pharaoh. Just search for 'they forgot' in Biblehub dot com. It appears numerous times. They forgot God's great works, the great things He did in Egypt and by the Red Sea. They allowed rational, worldly things of their normal experience to influence their thinking, instead of the divine things of their new experience with God to school their thoughts. They never changed, had a different spirit, like Caleb, never got born again. They were not allowed to enter Rest.

                              Remember: hear the Gospel with faith, see God rescuing you from dangers He creates.

                              Hear with faith the Holy Spirit's teaching that God can save, become a new person, enter Rest.

                              So better hear the real Gospel, instead of that rubbish you hear in your church.

                              Altar calls, Bah!
                              Last edited by footwasher; 07-26-2021, 08:51 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                Erasmus chose imputatum for his Latin translation of the NT instead of the reputatum of the Vulgate. It was a mistake!

                                Abraham's action was considered, had a reputation of righteousness, because it was really righteous. It was not inferred to be righteous. And God justified him, accepted him into His family, His People.

                                Now, Abraham didn't have to be morally perfect. All he had to do was to be loyal, which is perfectly within the capabilities of all humans! Remember, he just had to agree with God! Not a difficult thing to do, yet it was enough.

                                Getting into Rest was difficult, though. He had to remember God's great works, in saving him from Pharaoh and King Abhimelek. This was what made him born again, a different man from the one who 'worked' to protect himself by lying to Pharaoh.

                                Israel never learned from being rescued from Pharaoh. Just search for 'they forgot' in Biblehub dot com. It appears numerous times. They forgot God's great works, the great things He did in Egypt and by the Red Sea. They allowed rational, worldly things of their normal experience to influence their thinking, instead of the divine things of their new experience with God to school their thoughts. They never changed, had a different spirit, like Caleb, never got born again. They were not allowed to enter Rest.

                                Remember: hear the Gospel with faith, see God rescuing you from dangers He creates.

                                Hear with faith the Holy Spirit's teaching that God can save, become a new person, enter Rest.

                                So better hear the real Gospel, instead of that rubbish you hear in your church.

                                Altar calls, Bah!
                                So now we're moving the goalposts? You don't understand imputed righteousness nor your own shabby attempt at righteousness.

                                Comment

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