Originally posted by Sparko
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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God's Love and Allowing Evil
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostSome people make the claim that if God allows someone to be raped or tortured, then He does not really love that person. They say that according to 1 Corinthians 13, love is kind. They go on to say that if God allows someone to be raped or tortured, then He is not kind to person. Therefore, God does not love that person. The assumption is that if God loves a person, then He would not allow someone else to do evil to that person. How do you respond to this?
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
All are born under God's wrath and appointed to die. God hates the wicked according to scripture. And sets his love on some of the wicked he redeemed in Christ.
This seems to be unfair to Jews. Not so. All they have to do is be obedient. Drive out the son of the bondswoman. Individual Jews can abandon Judaism and line up to be part of the New Covenant. That's what Paul did.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
God's election is of Nations, not individuals. Two nations were being formed in Rachel's womb. Before either had done good or bad, one was chosen to be a vessel of destruction.
This seems to be unfair to Jews. Not so. All they have to do is be obedient. Drive out the son of the bondswoman. Individual Jews can abandon Judaism and line up to be part of the New Covenant. That's what Paul did.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
Remember Esau and Jacob were individuals. One hated the other loved. One damned along with his offspring, one blessed forever in Christ along with many of his offspring.
Gen 25:23The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."
Confirming this, Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel.
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After the Israelites left Egypt, the Edomites opposed the Israelites when they attempted to enter the Promised Land (Num. 20:14-21; Judges 11:17). Consequently, the Israelites went around them on the east side of the Jordan River or the Trans-Jordan area through the wilderness (Num. 21:4; Judges 11:18). Yet God told the Israelites to be kind to the Edomites (Deut. 23:7-8) because they were related and God had promised. After the Israelites entered Canaan, warfare occurred with the Edomites and they were subdued (1 Sam. 14:47-48; 2 Sam. 8:13-14). King David’s victory in 2 Sam. 8:13-14 achieved dominant control over Edom during his reign. During King Solomon’s reign the Edomites rebelled (1 Kings 11:14-22) but were subjected again. The Edomites were under the control of King Jehosphat according to 1 Kings 22:47-50. The Edomites were defeated again by King Amaziah (2 Chron. 25:11-12). The book of Obadiah pronounces judgment on Edom for all of their treacheries. Malachi 1:2-5 clearly indicates the same message. Some day they would be defeated and cease to exist as a nation.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...ke-thrown-off/
Judaism is Esau, is Ishmael, is the son of the slave woman, the Sinaitic Covenant!
The Israel of God is Jacob is Isaac, the son of the freewoman, the Jerusalem from above, the New Covenant!
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
Scripture says nations are being discussed:
Gen 25:23The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."
Confirming this, Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel.
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After the Israelites left Egypt, the Edomites opposed the Israelites when they attempted to enter the Promised Land (Num. 20:14-21; Judges 11:17). Consequently, the Israelites went around them on the east side of the Jordan River or the Trans-Jordan area through the wilderness (Num. 21:4; Judges 11:18). Yet God told the Israelites to be kind to the Edomites (Deut. 23:7-8) because they were related and God had promised. After the Israelites entered Canaan, warfare occurred with the Edomites and they were subdued (1 Sam. 14:47-48; 2 Sam. 8:13-14). King David’s victory in 2 Sam. 8:13-14 achieved dominant control over Edom during his reign. During King Solomon’s reign the Edomites rebelled (1 Kings 11:14-22) but were subjected again. The Edomites were under the control of King Jehosphat according to 1 Kings 22:47-50. The Edomites were defeated again by King Amaziah (2 Chron. 25:11-12). The book of Obadiah pronounces judgment on Edom for all of their treacheries. Malachi 1:2-5 clearly indicates the same message. Some day they would be defeated and cease to exist as a nation.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...ke-thrown-off/
Judaism is Esau, is Ishmael, is the son of the slave woman, the Sinaitic Covenant!
The Israel of God is Jacob is Isaac, the son of the freewoman, the Jerusalem from above, the New Covenant!
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
It still ends up salvation was of the Jews and not the Edomites. One must belong to Israel to be saved. Even today. Most can't see that Israel is the Church, however.
Salvation has already come from the Jews: it is Christ. Israel is not the Church. The Church is the new branch grafted into Abraham who is the father, the prototype of all people justified by faith. Israel is cut off, for not believing, not having faith. This is temporary. She will be grafted back.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
You said all are born under wrath, some being chosen to be vessels of destruction. Not so, Israel, a category, is hardened to be cut off. However, the hardening is temporary. All Israel will be saved when she says, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". This is a Jewish blessing which is conferred on the bridegroom. Israel must accept Messiah is the bridegroom, not Israel itself. She must accept a righteous not of her own, but one coming from God. She must abandon Judaism, which teaches Israel is the bridegroom!
Salvation has already come from the Jews: it is Christ. Israel is not the Church. The Church is the new branch grafted into Abraham who is the father, the prototype of all people justified by faith. Israel is cut off, for not believing, not having faith. This is temporary. She will be grafted back.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
The Church is Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel.
Rom 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
Jewish Israel exists. When the hardening is removed, Israel will become Christian. Israel will not disappear or be replaced. A remnant are kept by God, through a criteria of grace, not works, who observe fasting and tithing, without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, like justice, mercy and faithfulness. These ensure Israel's continued existence. Were it not so, Israel would long ago have become extinct like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Rom 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
They will only become Israelites when they accept Christ and become Christians. The times of the gentiles remain until the world ends. We preach the gospel to the whole world until then.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
Tel Aviv is the capital of a country called Israel. So its inhabitants are ALREADY Israelites.A) Since 2017, Jerusalem has been officially recognized by the US as the Capital of Israel
2) Residents of Israel can be Jewish or non-Jewish, and the "Jewishness" can be based on religion, culture, nationality...
C) Today's Israel is not the same as the Israel of the Bible on a number of pointsThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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