God's Love and Allowing Evil

[footwasher]

Couple of fine points here...

A) Since 2017, Jerusalem has been officially recognized by the US as the Capital of Israel
2) Residents of Israel can be Jewish or non-Jewish, and the "Jewishness" can be based on religion, culture, nationality...
C) Today's Israel is not the same as the Israel of the Bible on a number of points

Okay, CP.

Jerusalem is the capital of a country called Israel. So its inhabitants are ALREADY Israelites, according to conventions.

These inhabitants are being reached, by God, to be made aware of their existing condition and their need for Christ. Only Judaism has not been reached to turn to Christ, so that it may be healed. Yes, it needs intentionality, by God, for this to happen, and Scripture says it is delayed till the requisite number of Gentiles have been gathered.

Thanks, CP for pointing out the fine points.

:)

[Cow Poke]

Okay, CP.

Jerusalem is the capital of a country called Israel.

Which, in its current state, has only existed since 1948.

So its inhabitants are ALREADY Israelites, according to conventions.

Meh.... Jewish citizens of Israel call themselves Israelis.... then there are many other citizens of Israel who are Muslim, or other, or even secular Jews. "Israelite" is a term used mostly to refer to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.

Israelite:

a member of the ancient Hebrew nation, especially in the period from the Exodus to the Babylonian Captivity ( c. 12th to 6th centuries BC).

These inhabitants are being reached, by God, to be made aware of their existing condition and their need for Christ. Only Judaism has not been reached to turn to Christ, so that it may be healed. Yes, it needs intentionality, by God, for this to happen, and Scripture says it is delayed till the requisite number of Gentiles have been gathered.

Thanks, CP for pointing out the fine points.

:)

I think too many people think that the "nation of Israel" of the OT became the Nation State of Israel that was established in 1948, not by God's Covenant, but by man's treaties.

[Dave L]

Tel Aviv is the capital of a country called Israel. So its inhabitants are ALREADY Israelites.

Not according to scripture. They call themselves that not believing in Christ. But Jesus pulled the plug on them when he abolished circumcision. It alone made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. They only join biblical Isreal by accepting Christ.

[footwasher]

Not according to scripture. They call themselves that not believing in Christ. But Jesus pulled the plug on them when he abolished circumcision. It alone made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. They only join biblical Isreal by accepting Christ.

Paul says physical Israel still exists:

Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Because there are Jews who fast and tithe without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law (which John the Baptist also pointed out to correct was the error in the interpretation of the Pharisee observation of Torah), Israel has not become extinct:

Romans 9:29And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

So no pulling of plug.

So faithful Jews in Israel are still Israelites.

John 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”

[Dave L]

Paul says physical Israel still exists:

Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Because there are Jews who fast and tithe without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law (which John the Baptist also pointed out to correct was the error in the interpretation of the Pharisee observation of Torah), Israel has not become extinct:

Romans 9:29And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

So no pulling of plug.

So faithful Jews in Israel are still Israelites.

John 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”

The generation circumcised before Calvary was his audience. But after they died all the remaining are now gentiles who trample down Jerusalem until the end of the world according to Paul. Those who accept Christ join Israel the Church.

[footwasher]

The generation circumcised before Calvary was his audience. But after they died all the remaining are now gentiles who trample down Jerusalem until the end of the world according to Paul. Those who accept Christ join Israel the Church.

You haven't answered who has the irrevocable calling, ministry, of being blessings to the world, who will be grafted back as a nation, when the required number of non-native branches are added.

[Dave L]

You haven't answered who has the irrevocable calling, ministry, of being blessings to the world, who will be grafted back as a nation, when the required number of non-native branches are added.

Prove from Scripture they will become a biblical nation. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. He also says we are to preach to the gentiles until the world ends. This includes them too because they are in fact gentiles.

[Cow Poke]

Prove from Scripture they will become a biblical nation. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. He also says we are to preach to the gentiles until the world ends. This includes them too because they are in fact gentiles.

That was even included in the Christmas prophecies in the births of John and Jesus. ((Matthew 2:1-12; Isaiah 60:1-6)

[Dave L]

That was even included in the Christmas prophecies in the births of John and Jesus. ((Matthew 2:1-12; Isaiah 60:1-6)

Except, when Christ abolished circumcision, he abolished unbelieving Israel leaving only believers. The unbelievers all became non-Israelites or gentiles by default.

[footwasher]

Prove from Scripture they will become a biblical nation. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. He also says we are to preach to the gentiles until the world ends. This includes them too because they are in fact gentiles.

Romans 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Zionism is an ideology that Israel will be recognisable as a nation, with a homeland.

[Cow Poke]

Except, when Christ abolished circumcision, he abolished unbelieving Israel leaving only believers. The unbelievers all became non-Israelites or gentiles by default.

OK, now you're making my head hurt.

[Dave L]

Romans 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Zionism is an ideology that Israel will be recognisable as a nation, with a homeland.

It does not say what you think. You claim "and then all Israel will be saved" Mind you the church is Israel. What it really says is "and SO (in this way) all Israel (the church) will be saved. With the inclusion of the broken off Jews who believe in Christ.

[footwasher]

It does not say what you think. You claim "and then all Israel will be saved" Mind you the church is Israel. What it really says is "and SO (in this way) all Israel (the church) will be saved. With the inclusion of the broken off Jews who believe in Christ.

Why should the Church be saved? It is after all the Body of Christ. You aren't making sense.

What makes sense is that Paul is saying part of Israel is presently saved, converted Jews. However, in the future, all Israel will be saved, in the same way, by conversion.

[Dave L]

Why should the Church be saved? It is after all the Body of Christ. You aren't making sense.

What makes sense is that Paul is saying part of Israel is presently saved, converted Jews. However, in the future, all Israel will be saved, in the same way, by conversion.

This does not balance with the majority of scripture I already quoted. These are Gentiles who exist for one reason only. Their hatred and rejection of Christ. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900) Hitler was no accident.

[footwasher]

This does not balance with the majority of scripture I already quoted. These are Gentiles who exist for one reason only. Their hatred and rejection of Christ. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900) Hitler was no accident.

I have shown unequivocally that you quoted Scripture deceitfully, selectively, leaving out the actual context. You never refuted them, but kept changing the subject, again deceitfully. Man up and try to defend your claims. Don't keep escaping answering the faults I found in them.

The hardening of Israel is temporary.

Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”


Your verse is describing INDIVIDUALS who reject the Gospel, who will be permanently rejected. Israel is a nation, God blinded them to reject the Gospel, cut it off, so that in the future, it will be accepted through being given mercy, just as Gentile nations, who were cut off initially, were included, through being given mercy. That is how God is fair, not practicing favoritism, by giving Israel eligibilty, even though no one was righteous, not even a single nation.

Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.