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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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God's Love and Allowing Evil

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Nicely phrased, though I question whether entering rest is a means to becoming sinless - it would seem, rather, to be a result of maturity: a matter of finding rest when the fight against one's own sin is won.
    It means ceasing from your own works and relying on Christ's imputed righteousness instead. Yet people still try to save themselves instead of trusting in Christ alone.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      It means ceasing from your own works and relying on Christ's imputed righteousness instead. Yet people still try to save themselves instead of trusting in Christ alone.
      Paul, Peter, James, John - All are agreed.
      He, who has the hope of seeing Christ just as he is, 1 John 3:3 purifies himself just as He also is pure.
      Who purifies himself?
      Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
      Who puts to death the deeds of the flesh?
      1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
      Strange that there is a precondition to being cleansed by the blood of Christ, is it not?
      2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
      Who is to perform the cleansing?
      James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
      Who cleanses whose hands and purifies whose hearts?
      2 Cor 7:1 1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
      Who does the cleansing?
      1 Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable,
      Who purified their souls?
      1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
      Who abides in Christ?

      You are right in saying that a person's own works won't save him. The one who claims that a person will be saved without doing the works of God teaches falsely. The primary work of God that a person must do is to cleanse and purify one's self.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Nicely phrased, though I question whether entering rest is a means to becoming sinless - it would seem, rather, to be a result of maturity: a matter of finding rest when the fight against one's own sin is won.
        You know, Adam's body was a microcosm of Creation. He could subdue his body of death in the Garden, in the Kingdom, in Christ, not out of it. Pick up a cross, be lifted up, be inspired to tackle another sin!

        Thanks be to Christ, who saves us from that body of death, by bringing the Kingdom of God back amongst men.

        1 John 1.5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all b sin.

        8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
        Last edited by footwasher; 08-01-2021, 10:09 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          You know, Adam's body was a microcosm of Creation. He could subdue his body of death in the Garden, in the Kingdom, in Christ, not out of it. Pick up a cross, be lifted up, be inspired to tackle another sin!

          Thanks be to Christ, who saves us from that body of death, by bringing the Kingdom of God back amongst men.

          1 John 1.5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all b sin.

          8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
          Many are very happy to quote 1 John 1: 5-10; 1 John 2: 1-6, not so much.

          1: 8 If we claim to be without sin?
          or rather, if we claim that we have no sin, but either way, it does not say "if we claim that we do not commit sin," as is made clear by verse 10

          1: 10 If we claim we have not sinned?
          Where does it say "If we claim that we do not sin"?

          And chapter 2 spells it out explicitly:
          3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
          4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Paul, Peter, James, John - All are agreed.
            He, who has the hope of seeing Christ just as he is, 1 John 3:3 purifies himself just as He also is pure.
            Who purifies himself?
            Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
            Who puts to death the deeds of the flesh?
            1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
            Strange that there is a precondition to being cleansed by the blood of Christ, is it not?
            2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
            Who is to perform the cleansing?
            James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
            Who cleanses whose hands and purifies whose hearts?
            2 Cor 7:1 1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
            Who does the cleansing?
            1 Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable,
            Who purified their souls?
            1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
            Who abides in Christ?

            You are right in saying that a person's own works won't save him. The one who claims that a person will be saved without doing the works of God teaches falsely. The primary work of God that a person must do is to cleanse and purify one's self.
            Paul says we are saved by Christ's imputed righteousness (Romans 5) even if all of our wood, hay, stubble works are burnt up with fire. “If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:14–15 (KJV 1900)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              Paul says we are saved by Christ's imputed righteousness (Romans 5) even if all of our wood, hay, stubble works are burnt up with fire. “If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:14–15 (KJV 1900)
              Paul never says that we are saved by imputed righteousness.
              Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Paul never says that we are saved by imputed righteousness.
                Romans 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
                “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made (considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (considered) righteous.” This shows imputation. Romans 5:19 (KJV 1900)

                “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” Romans 5:19 (YLT)


                “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:” Romans 4:11 (KJV 1900)

                “And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” Romans 4:22–25 (KJV 1900)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Many are very happy to quote 1 John 1: 5-10; 1 John 2: 1-6, not so much.

                  1: 8 If we claim to be without sin?
                  or rather, if we claim that we have no sin, but either way, it does not say "if we claim that we do not commit sin," as is made clear by verse 10

                  1: 10 If we claim we have not sinned?
                  Where does it say "If we claim that we do not sin"?

                  And chapter 2 spells it out explicitly:
                  3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
                  4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
                  Exactly. And many use 1 John 1.9 as their detox verse, to absolve themselves of their sinful weekend!

                  I mean, what is the point? They have soap, so they can mess up?

                  Where's the progress, the improvement, the transformation?

                  They are supposed to use soap for the different sins, which should never appear again!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                    “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made (considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (considered) righteous.” This shows imputation. Romans 5:19 (KJV 1900)
                    kathistemi cannot be translated as "impute."
                    κατασταθησονται vb: ftr psv indctv 3pp they will get established make, cause, establish in,
                    ordain, appoint, maintain,
                    stand, demonstrate to be,
                    take a stand   καθιστημι

                    “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” Romans 5:19 (YLT)


                    “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:” Romans 4:11 (KJV 1900)
                    "Impute" is a reasonable interpretation for this one. So, those who believe might get righteousness imputed to them, which only says that Abraham's action made it possible for believers to have righteousness imputed to them. Nothing in this makes any mention of how that will actually be accomplished. If someone wants to interpret this passage in a way that makes it conflict with all the declarations about meeting Christ's (and God's) requirements explicitly stated elsewhere ...

                    “And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” Romans 4:22–25 (KJV 1900)
                    If anyone claims to believe on someone, and yet disbelieves what that person says, his claim to believe is false. To believe on Christ requires that we believe his statements, and among his statements is "not all shall enter, but only those who do the will of the Father" (Matt 7:21). Add to that, James denies that Abraham's faith would have amounted to anything had it not been met with appropriate action (James 2: 21-24). James denies that faith without works achieves anything. James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. He is not saying that works alone justify a person. He is saying that both are necessary. Paul says the same, and most importantly, Jesus says the same.

                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      kathistemi cannot be translated as "impute."
                      κατασταθησονται vb: ftr psv indctv 3pp they will get established make, cause, establish in,
                      ordain, appoint, maintain,
                      stand, demonstrate to be,
                      take a stand   καθιστημι







                      "Impute" is a reasonable interpretation for this one. So, those who believe might get righteousness imputed to them, which only says that Abraham's action made it possible for believers to have righteousness imputed to them. Nothing in this makes any mention of how that will actually be accomplished. If someone wants to interpret this passage in a way that makes it conflict with all the declarations about meeting Christ's (and God's) requirements explicitly stated elsewhere ...


                      If anyone claims to believe on someone, and yet disbelieves what that person says, his claim to believe is false. To believe on Christ requires that we believe his statements, and among his statements is "not all shall enter, but only those who do the will of the Father" (Matt 7:21). Add to that, James denies that Abraham's faith would have amounted to anything had it not been met with appropriate action (James 2: 21-24). James denies that faith without works achieves anything. James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. He is not saying that works alone justify a person. He is saying that both are necessary. Paul says the same, and most importantly, Jesus says the same.
                      If you study Romans 5, you might grasp it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        If you study Romans 5, you might grasp it.
                        Romans 5 can be turned to make it mean almost anything that the reader wants it to. Real study is supposed to start with explicit statements, so that ambiguous passages don't get misinterpreted.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Romans 5 can be turned to make it mean almost anything that the reader wants it to. Real study is supposed to start with explicit statements, so that ambiguous passages don't get misinterpreted.
                          So you take these liberties? You make it say what you want to hear?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            So you take these liberties? You make it say what you want to hear?
                            When ambiguous statements are interpreted in the light of explicit statements, "taking liberties" and making scripture seem to say what you want become very extremely difficult. You should try it some time.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              When ambiguous statements are interpreted in the light of explicit statements, "taking liberties" and making scripture seem to say what you want become very extremely difficult. You should try it some time.
                              Let's face it. Scripture is a Rorschach Test for many. But experience goes a long way in developing a true understanding. Have you experienced what I'm talking about? It only makes sense that you cannot grasp it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                                Let's face it. Scripture is a Rorschach Test for many.
                                For many, true enough. For people faithful to Christ, the truths of scripture are verified by experience.


                                But experience goes a long way in developing a true understanding.
                                I have enough experience to know that Calvinism is an empty philosophy.

                                Have you experienced what I'm talking about?
                                Thankfully, no.

                                It only makes sense that you cannot grasp it.
                                Two things provide a litmus test for whether people believe. People who are in the flesh can do neither.


                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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