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Free will?

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  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Any Christian knows what I'm talking about. The rest either ignore or trample my words underfoot.
    Actually I taught teenage Christians for years and just gave you a taste of the questions that actual teenagers, Christians all, would throw at you. And if you have no answers - and so far you do not - then your 'good news' cannot be heard because you do not speak their language. That is on you.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by thormas View Post

      Actually I taught teenage Christians for years and just gave you a taste of the questions that actual teenagers, Christians all, would throw at you. And if you have no answers - and so far you do not - then your 'good news' cannot be heard because you do not speak their language. That is on you.
      I was among hipster teachers and their victims for too long. They actually said Jesus was better than dope.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        I was among hipster teachers and their victims for too long. They actually said Jesus was better than dope.
        Good one Dave but you have no idea when I taught. Hipsters were't a thing :{

        Btw, I never did dope but I always knew Jesus was better.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by thormas View Post

          Good one Dave but you have no idea when I taught. Hipsters were't a thing :{

          Btw, I never did dope but I always knew Jesus was better.
          I think our communication reflects our bible study. I use standard terms used by the average Christian. Because I mainly speak to them.

          Comment


          • Hi Dave, I won't ignore or trample your words underfoot, but you have to provide Scripture that supports them.

            Originally posted by Dave L View Post
            Think of it this way. You have the best control over your life as God guides every choice and step you take. Or Satan does.
            However, even believers who had received the Holy Spirit, were guided by God, later disobeyed God, allowed Satan to control their lives:

            Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

            These believers had been justified by hearing with faith, had experienced the power of the Holy Spirit, and now they wanted to be sanctified by circumcision, works of the law, putting the work of the Cross to public shame.

            So did these:

            Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

            And God puts you through a course that produces the likeness of Christ in you. It is hypocrisy to act like Christ. But when God forms him in you and then you think and act that way, you are the real deal. When Satan controlled me, I was truly an automaton. But now God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on.
            But Scripture says those who had Christ formed in them did not profit from it:

            1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
            .........


            Hebrews 4:1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

            3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

            “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,

            THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”

            although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.





            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
              Hi Dave, I won't ignore or trample your words underfoot, but you have to provide Scripture that supports them.



              However, even believers who had received the Holy Spirit, were guided by God, later disobeyed God, allowed Satan to control their lives:

              Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

              These believers had been justified by hearing with faith, had experienced the power of the Holy Spirit, and now they wanted to be sanctified by circumcision, works of the law, putting the work of the Cross to public shame.

              So did these:

              Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.



              But Scripture says those who had Christ formed in them did not profit from it:

              1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
              .........


              Hebrews 4:1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

              3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

              “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,

              THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”

              although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.




              The point is, only after the new birth do you have free will. Before that, you are Satan's slave from birth.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                The point is, only after the new birth do you have free will. Before that, you are Satan's slave from birth.
                Dave, dave, dave......................look at these words.What can they mean to any but your own? Do you ever talk to others? Are they worth it? If not, that is a shame. If so, then do the work and learn how to talk to ordinary people and let the gospels be good news.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                  Dave, dave, dave......................look at these words.What can they mean to any but your own? Do you ever talk to others? Are they worth it? If not, that is a shame. If so, then do the work and learn how to talk to ordinary people and let the gospels be good news.
                  Have you ever sinned? “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever. So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.” John 8:34–36 (NLT)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    The point is, only after the new birth do you have free will. Before that, you are Satan's slave from birth.
                    What you are holding to is called compatibilism:

                    Compatibilism is the view of free will that says it is compatible with determinism. In other words, with compatibilism one can believe in both free will and determinism (the belief that everything that happens including human decisions and actions) are determined.

                    It claims that people are bound by how they have been created, locked into sin, with no freedom to choose otherwise. I can desire to fly, but because I can only walk, I really am not able to do what I am willing for, so my will is not really free to do what it wants.

                    However the Bible says different:

                    Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

                    In other words, Paul states unequivocally and without qualification that he (and it is certain that he means others as well) does what he does not want to do and does not do what he wants to do. With compatibilism that is impossible. Free will is not ability to do. Free will is ability to choose,
                    Last edited by footwasher; 10-21-2020, 11:36 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      Have you ever sinned? “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever. So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.” John 8:34–36 (NLT)


                      I have already refuted this argument here :

                      https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...98#post1192598

                      Quote
                      Why are the Jews slaves?

                      They claim that they are the children of Abraham and have never been slaves.

                      Jesus reminds them that Abraham had two sons and one was a slave, Ishmael, son of Hagar. Hagar is compared to Sinai, the covenant with Moses, the slave, the agreement given to God's People. Now, the covenant with Jesus, the Son, has arrived, which is permanent, because the son, Isaac, is never driven away, unlike Ishmael (John 8:35).

                      Do they want to be the People of God according to Ishmael, slaves, or the People of God according to Isaac, sons?

                      And since those in Christ, the real kapporeth, hilasterion, are free from sin, by passing the test that they really have His words remain in them, because His blood can take away sin, unlike the blood of bulls and goats, those who remain in the Law, Sinai, are still not only slaves, but also sinners. They want the words of Torah, not of Christ.

                      So John 8:34 is really dealing with those who want to preserve Judaism, the words of Moses, the slave, Law, and not have Jesus's, the Son's words, Grace, because they want a righteousness of their own, want Judaism to be the destination for being free of sin, the kapporeth, the thing that cleanses.

                      John 8:31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

                      34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.


                      ...


                      Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5“Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” a bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

                      .......

                      We are the New Humanity in Christ, the new People of God, the House built on Christ, the real kapporeth, the real Rest, entered by passing the test that Joshua passed, that the test of Israel failed at, both in the OT as well as the NT.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 10-21-2020, 11:52 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        Have you ever sinned? “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever. So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.” John 8:34–36 (NLT)
                        Of course but that is not the issue Dave, it is you and the failure to communicate except to a small group of similar people.

                        Translate Lad, translate..........

                        Comment


                        • Here we go, the Catholics are catching up to what God always knew: Pope Francis Voices Support for Same-Sex Civil Unions


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            Of course but that is not the issue Dave, it is you and the failure to communicate except to a small group of similar people.

                            Translate Lad, translate..........
                            Did you know the doctrine of predestination rules out free will. How can God be all-knowing if you control your future on impulse? If he created all, he created what you will be doing this time a year from now.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              What you are holding to is called compatibilism:

                              Compatibilism is the view of free will that says it is compatible with determinism. In other words, with compatibilism one can believe in both free will and determinism (the belief that everything that happens including human decisions and actions) are determined.

                              It claims that people are bound by how they have been created, locked into sin, with no freedom to choose otherwise. I can desire to fly, but because I can only walk, I really am not able to do what I am willing for, so my will is not really free to do what it wants.

                              However the Bible says different:

                              Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

                              In other words, Paul states unequivocally and without qualification that he (and it is certain that he means others as well) does what he does not want to do and does not do what he wants to do. With compatibilism that is impossible. Free will is not ability to do. Free will is ability to choose,
                              But unless born again, you choose only sin.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Did you know the doctrine of predestination rules out free will. How can God be all-knowing if you control your future on impulse? If he created all, he created what you will be doing this time a year from now.
                                To be clear there is a difference between predetermination and pre-destination and to accept the latter (properly understood) is to also safeguard free will.



                                Comment

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