Free will?

[Dave L]

But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.

Think of it this way. You have the best control over your life as God guides every choice and step you take. Or else Satan does. And God puts you through a course that produces the likeness of Christ in you. It is hypocrisy to act like Christ. But when God forms him in you and then you think and act that way, you are the real deal. When Satan controlled me, I was truly an automaton. But now God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on.

[thormas]

Think of it this way. You have the best control over your life as God guides every choice and step you take. Or else Satan does. And God puts you through a course that produces the likeness of Christ in you. It is hypocrisy to act like Christ. But when God forms him in you and then you think and act that way, you are the real deal. When Satan controlled me, I was truly an automaton. But now God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on.

I believe there is free will but I also believe that if one chooses correctly, i.e. choses for God, then, as you have said we have the best control over our lives or we are truly free. There is a difference between free will and the 'freedom to be.'

However, I don't see such freedom as God guiding every step we take - although I do understand the idea - I see it as man's continual choice to be a son or daughter of God. I always like the quote, "Love God and do what you will." For what one then wills is to love.

Nor would I phrase it that God put us through a course (sounds like a test). I do believe, as the theologian John Hick says that this world is a 'soul-making' world and the environment in which we become or can become our best selves, children of the Father. And it is not hypocrisy to act like Christ: he is the Way, he is the epitome of Love ----------who else would we act like?

There is a 'forming' but God is in relationship with us and, therefore, we are involved in it also. It is, it must be, the individual man or woman who responds to God and chooses this 'forming' to take place. God respects the freedom he has given us.

This is a powerful statement: "God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on." I agree.

[Dave L]

I believe there is free will but I also believe that if one chooses correctly, i.e. choses for God, then, as you have said we have the best control over our lives or we are truly free. There is a difference between free will and the 'freedom to be.'

However, I don't see such freedom as God guiding every step we take - although I do understand the idea - I see it as man's continual choice to be a son or daughter of God. I always like the quote, "Love God and do what you will." For what one then wills is to love.

Nor would I phrase it that God put us through a course (sounds like a test). I do believe, as the theologian John Hick says that this world is a 'soul-making' world and the environment in which we become or can become our best selves, children of the Father. And it is not hypocrisy to act like Christ: he is the Way, he is the epitome of Love ----------who else would we act like?

There is a 'forming' but God is in relationship with us and, therefore, we are involved in it also. It is, it must be, the individual man or woman who responds to God and chooses this 'forming' to take place. God respects the freedom he has given us.

This is a powerful statement: "God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on." I agree.

The way I understand free will and sovereignty is that we always choose for a reason. God controls us through our free will based on the reasons he sends for us to base our choices on. In this way, he imprints Christ on our hearts through the choices we make.

[thormas]

The way I understand free will and sovereignty is that we always choose for a reason. God controls us through our free will based on the reasons he sends for us to base our choices on. In this way, he imprints Christ on our hearts through the choices we make.

I often start by thinking about what goes on in a human to human relationship since that can provide insight into the relationship between God and man. We are free beings and all relationships are a risk - the girl might not love you, the guy might not want to be a friend, and let's not forget Adam who said 'NO!' to God - but when someone chooses to love you, to be a friend, to be in relationship with God.........that is a relationship that is far more valuable, far more special than any in which we are controlled.

I don't believe God controls us at all. I believe that God is always present (the Father of the prodigal is always there, never turning away, always open to renewed relationship with his son) but he waits for man to accept and live in relationship. And in that choice for God, I do believe there is a freedom to be one's fullest self, the very image of Abba. Just as in human relationships, one entered freely is of a much better, much more fulfilling, richer than one that is coerced or one in which one party is controlled.

Jesus wasn't controlled: met with the opportunity to break the relationship with God (symbolized by the temptations story), he made a choice for God, that freed him to be and to be for us all. iI is we, in God, who puts 'on Christ' so that we might truly live.

[Dave L]

I believe there is free will but I also believe that if one chooses correctly, i.e. choses for God, then, as you have said we have the best control over our lives or we are truly free. There is a difference between free will and the 'freedom to be.'

However, I don't see such freedom as God guiding every step we take - although I do understand the idea - I see it as man's continual choice to be a son or daughter of God. I always like the quote, "Love God and do what you will." For what one then wills is to love.

Nor would I phrase it that God put us through a course (sounds like a test). I do believe, as the theologian John Hick says that this world is a 'soul-making' world and the environment in which we become or can become our best selves, children of the Father. And it is not hypocrisy to act like Christ: he is the Way, he is the epitome of Love ----------who else would we act like?

There is a 'forming' but God is in relationship with us and, therefore, we are involved in it also. It is, it must be, the individual man or woman who responds to God and chooses this 'forming' to take place. God respects the freedom he has given us.

This is a powerful statement: "God provides the reasons I base my free will choices on." I agree.

Either Satan or God plans our course. You are either a slave to sin or a slave of Christ.

[thormas]

Either Satan or God plans our course. You are either a slave to sin or a slave of Christ.

Try not to be so literal and rather probe what your words means.

God and Christ are not interested in slaves............Jesus called God ABBA (a child's name for his Father, meaning Daddy or DaDa). Do you think Daddy (the God who is Love) wants slaves?

Christ gave himself in love. A master does not have to love a slave, a master does not have to do anything for a slave, certainly not die. The man or woman who chooses God, who chooses the Christ does so freely to live in the freedom of God.

As for salvery to Satan, sure I get that sin or selfishness 'enslaves' us or keeps us in an unhealthy 'bondage' not letting us be our true selves. But 'translate' from words like slavery so people know what you're actually talking about. Many modern people would have no idea what you mean - speak to be understood by others if it is really as important as you think it is. Otherwise some few might get it but how many others will simply hear 'slavery' think you're crazy and simply walk away? And that is not on them, it is on you, it is on us. Look at the pains that Jesus went to to explain - do you think it was easy coming up with all those parables?

[Dave L]

Try not to be so literal and rather probe what your words means.

God and Christ are not interested in slaves............Jesus called God, ABBA (a child's name for his Father, meaning Daddy or DaDa). Do you think Daddy wants slaves?

Christ gave himself in love. A master does not have to love a slave, a master does not have to do anything for a slave, certainly not die. The man or woman who chooses God, who chooses the Christ does so freely to live in the freedom of God.

As for salvery to Satan, sure I get that sin or selfishness 'enslaves' us or keeps us in an unhealthy bondage not letting us be our true selves. But 'translate' from words like slavery so people know what you're actually talking about. Many modern people would have node what you mean and that is on you - speak to be understood by others if it is really as important as you think it is. Other wise some few might get it but how many others will simply hear 'salvery' think you're crazy and simply walk away. And that is not on them, it is on you. Look at the pains that Jesus went to to explain - do you think it was easy coming up with all those parables?

If you were born dead in Adam, you belonged to Satan and were his slave. Until Christ made you his slave.

[Dave L]

I often start by thinking about what goes on in a human to human relationship since that can provide insight into the relationship between God and man. We are free beings and all relationships are a risk - the girl might not love you, the guy might not want to be a friend, and let's not forget Adam who said 'NO!' to God - but when someone chooses to love you, to be a friend, to be in relationship with God.........that is a relationship that is far more valuable, far more special than any in which we are controlled.

I don't believe God controls us at all. I believe that God is always present (the Father of the prodigal is always there, never turning away, always open to renewed relationship with his son) but he waits for man to accept and live in relationship. And in that choice for God, I do believe there is a freedom to be one's fullest self, the very image of Abba. Just as in human relationships, one entered freely is of a much better, much more fulfilling, richer than one that is coerced or one in which one party is controlled.

Jesus wasn't controlled: met with the opportunity to break the relationship with God (symbolized by the temptations story), he made a choice for God, that freed him to be and to be for us all. iI is we, in God, who puts 'on Christ' so that we might truly live.

Either God or Satan controls all people. Ultimately God even controls Satan.

[thormas]

If you were born dead in Adam, you belonged to Satan and were his slave. Until Christ made you his slave.

You've done it again.

What sense does this make to a person, even a Christian, who doesn't take the Genesis story of Creation or Adam literally? It makes no sense...........I can imagine a teenager saying "there was no Adam, it's a story" or "Adam belonged to a snake, what?" or "what's this slavery stuff? "Slavery is wrong, how can you call Christ a slaver." Or what if they just came from a literature or history class and had a discussion on 'satan' where they examined the various uses or mentions of the name in poetry or history or, worse, they saw the show 'Lucifer' on TV and and they say, "come on, you can't really believe that stuff, do you mean that Lucifer guy on television?" You can't just say, as some people on this site seem to do that they not good Christians, or they will be damned for not believing ............it is on us, it is on you!

If people can't explain their own Christian beliefs - do they really get it themselves? Not just parrot quotes and biblical words but explain, translate, present their faith so others can at least have a decent change to hear and understand it. If they can't take the time, make the effort with others, what good is all the Christian love stuff that they talk about?

[Dave L]

You've done it again.

What sense does this make to a person, even a Christian, who doesn't take the Genesis story of Creation or Adam literally? It makes no sense...........I can imagine a teenager saying "there was no Adam, it's a story" or "Adam belonged to a snake, what?" or "what's this slavery stuff? "Slavery is wrong, how can you call Christ a slaver." Or what if they just came from a literature or history class and had a discussion on 'satan' where they examined the various uses or mentions of the name in poetry or history or, worse, they saw the show 'Lucifer' on TV and and they say, "come on, you can't really believe that stuff, do you mean that Lucifer guy on television?" You can't just say, as some people on this site seem to do that they not good Christians, or they will be damned for not believing ............it is on us, it is on you!

If people can't explain their own Christian beliefs - do they really get it themselves? Not just parrot quotes and biblical words but explain, translate, present their faith so others can at least have a decent change to hear and understand it. If they can't take the time, make the effort with others, what good is all the Christian love stuff that they talk about?

If you don't believe the Bible, who do you serve?

[thormas]

If you don't believe the Bible, who do you serve?

OMG, Dave.............thinks before you write.

[Dave L]

OMG, Dave.............thinks before you write.

Do you believe all sinned and became lost in Adam?

[thormas]

Do you believe all sinned and became lost in Adam?

And there you go again.......

I could answer questions like these endlessly and have ........but you have not even had the decency to comment on what I have written.

You seemingly use the Testaments to try to play 'gotcha' games while showing no wisdom into the very words you use.

When you're ready for an adult conversation, let me know.

[Dave L]

And there you go again.......

I could answer questions like these endlessly and have ........but you have not even had the decency to comment on what I have written.

You seemingly use the Testaments to try to play 'gotcha' games while showing no wisdom into the very words you use.

When you're ready for an adult conversation, let me know.

If you have free will. Stop sinning.

[thormas]

If you have free will. Stop sinning.

All hat and no cattle, bless your heart :+}