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Free will?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    What is the context of Romans 5:20? ...

    IOW, God, in giving law, did not cause sin.
    Yet the law was given so that trespass would increase, we read, and similarly in Rom. 7: "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Rom. 7:9-11)

    Taken in context this means that Israel has become disobedient in refusing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not that the whole world was caused to sin morally.
    "God bound all to disobedience", this clearly means all people, Jews and Gentiles, in context.

    You have to show a situation that proves God causes a person to sin, in not having faith in Christ.
    "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
    Return for the sake of your servants,
    the tribes that are your inheritance." (Isa. 63:17)

    And also here:

    "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
    'He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them.' " (John 12:39-40)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      Scripture Verse: Romans 5

      13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Paul is not saying that sinful acts increased after the law was given (which wouldn't make sense), but rather that the understanding that the acts were sinful increased.
      Well, the text reads "the law was given so that trespass would increase"! See also above in my response to footwasher, in Romans 7.

      And God binds us all to disobedience by virtue of sending us into a sinful world where inborn perfection is impossible, but that does not mean He desires that we sin (wills that we disobey).
      Again, see above in my response to footwasher.

      You're contradicting yourself. According to you, God willed Satan to sin which in turn willed David to sin. There can be no "secondary" in your philosophy. All sin is attributable to God. Which of course is nonsense.
      Sin is in God's plan, we see this with Job, for instance:

      "Then the LORD said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.' " (Job 1:8)

      And it was God's plan that Job suffer, and emerge victorious.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        He would absolutely be wrong if He both caused sin and punished people for it. Paul is describing Molinism, which involves God creating the "version" of us which best suits His perfect purposes. That is, He knows how "we" would act under any and every circumstances and chooses to bring a specific version of us into existence. Therefore our wills and His coexist.
        "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" (Rom. 9:21)

        This is not God looking at the choices the pottery might make, this is God choosing to make pottery for his own purposes.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

          Yet the law was given so that trespass would increase, we read, and similarly in Rom. 7: "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Rom. 7:9-11)
          Israel thought that possessing the Law proved she was the descendant of Abraham. However, God gave the Law, because Israel asked for it to protect her from God’s judgment. The Law protected Israel, but not in the way she imagined.

          Deuteronomy 5:24“You said, ‘Behold, the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25‘Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any longer, then we will die. 26‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27‘Go near and hear all that the LORD our God says; then speak to us all that the LORD our God speaks to you, and we will hear and do it.’

          28“The LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me, ‘I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They have done well in all that they have spoken. 29‘Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

          There were more rules than the Penal Code or the consciences of the Gentiles, on which the Code was based, so that more infractions, sins would be counted. She was given a commandment not to covet, the Gentiles were not, so the probability of her being in infraction increased with more rules like that. God did not cause people to sin, He made the rules for Israel more, so that she would be aware of the burden and the difficulty and the impossibility of meeting all the requirements, and turn to Him for mercy, because forgiveness was also provided in the Law.

          "God bound all to disobedience", this clearly means all people, Jews and Gentiles, in context.
          Israel believed the Gentiles would always be found disobedient, disqualified to be included in God’s People, because they did not have an agreement, Law. However, God made Israel also disqualified, by making it impossible for those who follow Judaism, Torah observant, to believe Jesus was the Messiah. This was to make it fair, just: Gentiles were found disqualified because they couldn’t follow all that their conscience commanded them to do, and nations like Sodom and Gomorrah suffered God’s judgment. Israel survived because they had Law, and as long as they asked for forgiveness, they survived. But NOW, Israel, was disqualified, cut off from God’s People, because the veiled Law prevented her from believing in Jesus was the Messiah. Now a new requirement must be met, by both Jew and Gentile, to be accepted into the group called the New Humanity in Christ: obedience to the teachings of Jesus. Notice how God is fair, in the words used, bolded by me:

          Romans 3:25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

          Romans 11:30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all

          "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
          and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
          Return for the sake of your servants,
          the tribes that are your inheritance." (Isa. 63:17)

          And also here:

          "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
          'He has blinded their eyes
          and hardened their hearts,
          so they can neither see with their eyes,
          nor understand with their hearts,
          nor turn—and I would heal them.' " (John 12:39-40)
          Your verses apply to the nation of Israel, not individuals. The disciples were Jews and they were not hardened. They left Judaism, following works of the Law, and became Christians, following the Law of Christ.
          Last edited by footwasher; 09-06-2020, 03:53 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            I believe we will eventually have free will, within the will of God.

            Free will implies having a choice. If you claim free will is only a possibility in the future, then the instances where people were offered a choice in the Bible contradicts that claim.

            Right, we can't choose, without God:

            "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (Jn 8:34
            34Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

            Romans 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.

            Your logic is:

            Man is sinful, a slave to sin, spiritually dead, cannot believe in Jesus. God regenerates, makes him spiritually alive, makes him believe.


            Non sequitur, does not follow. The context of Jn 8:34 and Ro 7:14-15 is that those who believed in Jesus are still slaves:


            John 8:31So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

            33“We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”

            34Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

            ……..
            Romans 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

            18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

            21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)

              Not "I will!", but rather...

              "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25)

              "My eyes are continually toward the LORD,
              For He will pluck my feet out of the net." (Ps 25:15)

              If we could deliver ourselves from sin, from slavery to sin, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Non sequitur, does not follow.

              Your reasoning is this:

              Righteousness cannot come from self effort, if it did Christ's death was needless.

              The context of Gal 2:21 is this:

              Galatians 2:15“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17“But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19“For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

              Even we Jews, who had the Law, have given up the Law and become Christians, followers of the Law of Christ! Following the Law of Moses now is sin, and since we follow Christ, Christ is not a teacher of sin! We are not trying to rebuild what we once labelled as sin! Moreover, the Law itself pointed to Christ! When I follow the Law of Christ, I do not nullify grace, because there is no grace in the Law of Mose, and it does exist in the Law of Christ, else Christ died needlessly!

              All this confusion arises out of misunderstanding the situation. Let's use an example. In the Story, Silver Blaze, the police arrest a man for stealing a horse. He had the motive, he had the opportunity, and he lacked an alibi. Everything necessary for a conviction. However, there were unanswered questions. Why did the dog not bark in the night?


              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ad...e#Plot_summary


              In your explanation about free will, choosing not to sin, why don’t you answer how God was going to bruise the serpent's head? How this was through Abraham becoming a blessing to the world? How is the Land promised to Israel connected to this blessing? Why do you miss out this when Christ and Paul and the writers of the New Testament keep mentioning Rest, becoming blessings to the world?

              2 Corintians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

              Paraphrase
              He made Him who was without blemish to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that we might become the covenantal faithfulness of God in Him.

              The Creation story tells how God desired to have manifestations of righteousness on earth, as in heaven. Man was the plant, rooted in the soil of God’s presence, so that fruit, righteousness, subduing of humanity's survival impulse would manifest. In plain terms, Adam would see God’s great works and promise to obey Him and be tested for the truth of his promise and remain in God’s presence when he passed.

              How could Adam see God’s great works? Because he was in God’s presence. But only the pure can be in God’s presence. Adam could think negative things about God, but it was not counted as sin because he did not know good from evil. Anybody with a little knowledge about law will tell you that those who can’t tell good from evil competently, like minor and the insane, are immune from the law.

              Since Adam was immune and pure, he could see God’s great works. Those who see these great works, like Rahab and Nicodemus, become subdued, turn away from mammon, selfishness, to serving God, in subduing others, by manifesting God's great works, after entering Rest. However, Adam did not let these works build up his faith, but let fear destroy it. He acquired the knowledge of good and evil, lost immunity from law and became guilty because he did not have a subdued body.


              The solution of humanity’s problem is to get immunity back, so that we can be in God’s presence, so that we can subdue our body.

              Romans 8:23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

              Our spirit is already redeemed, is now with Christ:

              Ephesians 2:6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

              This is by being justified, recognised as being loyal to God through confession, believing God will raise us up when we pick up our cross everyday. And God will raise us up everyday if we prove our faith is real, through being obedient.

              This is how that can be explained.

              Imagine someone stuck on a ledge and God wants him to trust Him to save him from dying. God promises him that he will never die while trying to climb higher, that he will always be caught. He proves this by making the ledge collapse and then catching him. Then he asks him to climb higher, because if he reaches the top, he will become a blessing to the world, by shocking people, like Rahab and Nicodemus were shocked into submission in seeing impossible things done, hard Scripture expl.

              This is what happened to Caleb. God caused him to fall, suffer hunger and thirst, and rescued him. This caused him to have a different spirit, because he let God’s great works strengthen, perfect, his faith, so that when God told him to set out and enter the Promised Land, he was not afraid and went forward. The same thing happened to Abraham. Both did not actually enter the real Rest, but only together with us, who have had the real Rest, Christ, made available, will they be made perfect.

              Exposure to God’s great works is through believing God’s promise to bring us into Rest, by being successful when our faith is tested, which needs to be strengthened by seeing God’s great works, by believing God will rescue us when we take up the cross, by being baptised in Christ’s name.

              We should not be like Israel, who forgot God’s great works, so that when they were tested, they could not enter God’s Rest, together with us.

              We should not be like the believers in Acts 19, who did not receive the revelation of God’s great works, because they were not baptised into the promise of God to always resurrect, when we pick up the cross everyday, because then we will not be able to strengthen our faith, which is necessary to pass the test, when we hear God’s voice:

              Hebrews 3:7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

              “Today, if you hear His voice,

              8do not harden your hearts,

              as you did in the rebellion,

              in the day of testing in the wilderness,

              9where your fathers tested and tried Me,

              and for forty years saw My works.

              10Therefore I was angry with that generation,

              and I said,

              ‘Their hearts are always going astray,

              and they have not known My ways.’

              11So I swore on oath in My anger,

              ‘They shall never enter My rest.’ ”
              12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
              14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. 15As it has been said:
              “Today, if you hear His voice,
              do not harden your hearts,
              as you did in the rebellion.”e
              16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.

              To provide the missing answers, Christ was the sin offering which cleansed humanity, became the New Man in Christ. Only when we enter this destination, Promised Land, Rest, in Christ, through passing a test, proving we have turned away from depending on mammon, to depending on God, like Barnabas, unlike Ananias and Sapphira, do we enter Rest, become immune, and can be in God’s presence, can we subdue our body. That’s why Paul says:

              Romans 7:25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

              Quote
              We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

              https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-08-2020, 03:47 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                No, he is talking about "us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles" (v. 24) being chosen as objects of his mercy, while others are chosen as objects of wrath.

                The ‘us’ is ‘Christians’ a group, a people, not individuals.

                Romans 9:23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
                25As He says also in Hosea,
                “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
                AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
                26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
                THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”


                But not everyone responds to God's love:

                "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Heb. 6:7-8)

                But the point remains that our love has a cause, in the love of God, and thus is not (at least initially) a free choice on our part.
                God put every person in different circumstances hoping they might seek him. ‘Might’ indicates a possibility some won’t seek Him, indicating there is a choice. Therefore, He does not 'cause' us to seek Him, only reveals the futility of a life without Him.

                Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  If God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.
                  If we are puppets then our feelings and minds are mere functioning of our biological nature. A biological machine have no real moral value. We kill animals for food.
                  ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                  ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                  https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    The ‘us’ is ‘Christians’ a group, a people, not individuals.
                    But how can you choose a group of people for salvation, without choosing individuals?

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      But how can you choose a group of people for salvation, without choosing individuals?
                      Romans 9:23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
                      25As He says also in Hosea,
                      “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
                      AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
                      26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
                      THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”


                      But how can you choose a group of people for salvation, without choosing individuals?
                      The identification mark of the People of God is His presence, manifested in rescuing from calamities and lighting up of darkness, which God prepared in advance for His People/Group to face:

                      Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
                      create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

                      John 9:23Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

                      John 11:4But when Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.”

                      Matthew 11:5
                      The blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and good news is preached to the poor.

                      John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

                      God’s presence was once amongst Jews, now it is among non-Jews. What prevents Jews from being a Christian? The belief that they are the blessings to the world, a light unto the Gentiles, non-Jews, other Nations, through being Torah observant, leading to blessings from God, motivating the world to become Jewish.

                      2 Samuel 7:23And who is like Your people Israel--the one nation on earth whom God went out to redeem as a people for Himself, to make a name for Himself, and to perform for them great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before Your people, whom You redeemed for Yourself from Egypt?

                      Romans 9:5But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

                      Romans 10:3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


                      Gentiles are not stumbled by a wrong understanding:

                      Romans 9:30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

                      33just as it is written,
                      “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
                      AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”


                      Meaning Jews misunderstood, expected that by being circumcised, washing their hands, avoiding unclean food, they would be identified as Jews and would receive the promise given to Abraham, be blessings to the world, lead them to God, by motivating them to be Jews too.

                      However God identified His People as those manifesting His great works, through being at rest in Him, through believing He could always deliver:

                      Romans 4:10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

                      At Sinai, Israel asked for methods, the Way to protect from God’s holiness, preserve life. However, what was supposed to give life gave death, because it had to be followed perfectly. David said:

                      Romans:4 7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
                      AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
                      8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

                      By increasing transgression, including sins like coveting, Israel became more sinful. Sin caused them to die, be separated from God, unable to be a light to the world. Puzzled with what the law did when followed, they concluded that they did not have to follow it perfectly, only enough, a mandatory portion, halakhah, to be identified as Jews, descendants of Abraham, through circumcision, which justified them, identified them as descendants, automatically forcing God to bless them making them a model to the world, helping it, in turn become a blessing to it. Many rabbis rose up, each with a different set of halakhah, works of the law, after scouring Scripture for the correct combination, the Way, which guaranteed entering rest in God, coming near to Him, knowing Him like Joseph knew Mary, being in union with Him, having eternal life.

                      John 17:3This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

                      Quote
                      Halakhah, (Hebrew: “the Way”) also spelled Halakha, Halakah, or Halachah, plural Halakhahs, Halakhot, Halakhoth, or Halachot, in Judaism, the totality of laws and ordinances that have evolved since biblical times to regulate religious observances and the daily life and conduct of the Jewish people.

                      https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hal...ewish%20people.

                      So the contrast is between a group following the belief of observing works of the law, who will be identified as cut off, and a group following the doctrine that God will always protect from danger of failing in doing great works or shedding light on difficult Scripture and ideas , have trust, like Abraham and Caleb (a Gentile) followed, identified as grafted in. What Israel should have done with the Law is that they should have treated it like a calamity, a cross, and expected God to protect. Which is what non-Jews do with the law of Christ: to pick up a cross every day and follow Him, in believing God will resurrect, causing others, like Rahab and Nicodemus, to turn to God.

                      John 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2020, 08:34 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                        .....And I believe that God's children have free will, but not unbelievers (John 8:34,36).......... (1 John 3:8)

                        Is it moral for God to condemn people who have no free will?
                        ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                        ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                        https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                          Is it moral for God to condemn people who have no free will?
                          Yes, for their motive is not to do God's will:

                          "I send [Assyria] against a godless nation,
                          I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
                          to seize loot and snatch plunder,
                          and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
                          But this is not what he intends,
                          this is not what he has in mind;
                          his purpose is to destroy,
                          to put an end to many nations." (Isa. 10:6-7)

                          "When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, 'I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.' " (Isa. 10:12)

                          Note: "I will punish ... for the willful pride", the motive, the attitude of the heart is what is punished here. I am willing to grant some freedom of motive in unbelievers, but not freedom of action (John 8:34).

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Yes, for their motive is not to do God's will:

                            "I send [Assyria] against a godless nation,
                            I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
                            to seize loot and snatch plunder,
                            and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
                            But this is not what he intends,
                            this is not what he has in mind;
                            his purpose is to destroy,
                            to put an end to many nations." (Isa. 10:6-7)

                            "When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, 'I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.' " (Isa. 10:12)

                            Note: "I will punish ... for the willful pride", the motive, the attitude of the heart is what is punished here. I am willing to grant some freedom of motive in unbelievers, but not freedom of action (John 8:34).

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Concerning God’s punishment of Assyria for defeating BABYLON.

                            God raised Assyria up to defeat Babylon.

                            However, the hammer must not exceed its brief, have a greater sin.

                            Let’s begin with Israel. Because the Jews broke God’s Law, began to exploit each other, in spite of God de-linking effort from wealth, because the new Land God brought Israel into was not like Egypt, which depended on drawing water from the Nile, but depended on God for rain, given conditioned upon her people looking after each other, God sent Babylon, a selfish, wealth seeking nation to defeat her.

                            Babylon was supposed to only defeat Israel and plunder her wealth and take her away in slavery. Instead, she indulged in bloodlust:

                            Isaiah 13:17Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them,

                            Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.

                            18And their bows will mow down the young men,

                            They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb,

                            Nor will their eye pity children.

                            19And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,

                            Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.


                            Babylon was free to defeat Israel and plunder her wealth. However, because they indulged in violence and murder too, God raised up another nation, the Medes, who did not love silver or gold, to crush them. Not only is Babyon punished, but the reason for their punishment is revealed for all to see.

                            Assyria was punished for pride. How? By creating circumstances that punished Babylon. She was punished not for defeating Babylon but for being proud. Babylon was punished for being cruel. How? By God creating circumstances that punished Israel. Babylon was punished not for defeating Israel, but for excessive cruelty.

                            God wanted to punish Israel. However, He also wanted to punish Babylon for being unnecessarily cruel. He raised Babylon up, made her great, so that she could defeat Israel. He allowed her to plunder Israel, but did not allow cruelty. Since Babylon indulged in bloodlust, God raised up Assyria, a people known for warring not because of plundering, love of silver and gold, but because of bloodlust, to do to Babylon what she did to Israel.

                            What we can conclude from this is:

                            God will raise up natural forces to punish.

                            The punishment will come in a way which reveals the crime (even Egypt was punished fittingly for killing the Hebrew males by drowning, when her sons were killed by drowning in the Red Sea).

                            If you are evil, God will use you for dishonourable purposes. If you are righteous, you will be made a vessel of honor, have the privilege of doing good works.

                            You can see Pharoah was raised up for God’s purposes of oppressing Israel. Because they were also sinners.

                            You can see how Israel also was used as a vessel of dishonour, so that through their unfaithfulness, Gentiles could be included. Yes Israel, Pharoah and Judas were all were hardened, but they were already sinful: their sin was already existing, it just needed to be fast forwarded, they needed to be raised up, given the opportunity to sin, to suit God’s timetable.Two birds were killed (excuse the pun) with one stone.

                            Bottomline, nowhere does it teach that all men are evil, incapable of willing to do anything other than to sin, requiring God to set aside a few, to be regenerated, to be made capable of not sinning, in believing the Gospel. Hardening is to show up the sin God is punishing for,

                            The Calvinistic doctrine of compatibility, compatibilism, inability to believe because of total depravity yet having free will, is contradictory, claiming humanity is incapable of faith but still having free will is illogical. How can a robot be claimed to have free will?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                              Bottomline, nowhere does it teach that all men are evil, incapable of willing to do anything other than to sin, requiring God to set aside a few, to be regenerated, to be made capable of not sinning, in believing the Gospel.
                              But Scripture does teach this:

                              "There is no one righteous, not even one;
                              there is no one who understands;
                              there is no one who seeks God.
                              All have turned away,
                              they have together become worthless;
                              there is no one who does good,
                              not even one.” (Rom. 3:10-12)

                              The Calvinistic doctrine of compatibility, compatibilism, inability to believe because of total depravity yet having free will, is contradictory, claiming humanity is incapable of faith but still having free will is illogical. How can a robot be claimed to have free will?
                              And I don't believe those apart from Christ have free will:

                              "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (John 8:34)

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                But Scripture does teach this:

                                "There is no one righteous, not even one;
                                there is no one who understands;
                                there is no one who seeks God.
                                All have turned away,
                                they have together become worthless;
                                there is no one who does good,
                                not even one.” (Rom. 3:10-12)
                                The context of Romans 3:10-12.

                                Paul is not teaching about individual unrighteousness, but about national unrighteousness. The Gentiles thought they had been included into God's People because they had performed better than Jews in terms of morality, that God was refusing entry to Jewish converts, proved by the disasters that were falling on the latter.

                                Paul had a special lesson for the church in Rome. The Gentiles in Rome were getting uppity. Claudius had thrown the Jews out and the Gentile faction took over the church. When Claudius died, the Jews came back. The Gentiles wouldn't hand back the leadership. They reasoned that they had been chosen to replace the Jews because they had been more righteous, and the bad things happening to the Jews proved it. Not so, said Paul, ALL types of people were unrighteous. Jews were condemned by Torah, Gentiles by their conscience. He was talking about groups, not individuals. Elizabeth and Zacharias were considered righteous by God, as were the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11.

                                Romans 3:9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

                                10as it is written,
                                “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

                                11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
                                THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

                                12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
                                THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
                                THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

                                Quote
                                (1) many internal clues (11:13ff., etc., where Gentile pride has cropped up; cf. the whole thrust of chs. 9–11); (2) one main external clue (the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by Claudius a few years earlier—which would certainly continue to have rippling effects, even within the church); and (3) a chiastic pattern unfolding some of the structure of the book (viz., in chapter 3 Paul asks five questions which are unfolded in reverse order throughout chapters 3–11). What is intriguing is that, concerning this last point (the chiastic structure), although Paul answers in brief the question of 3:1 (“What advantage has the Jew?”) in the next verse, he really expands on it in chapters 9–11.

                                https://bible.org/seriespage/6-roman...nt-and-outline


                                And I don't believe those apart from Christ have free will:

                                "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (John 8:34)

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Sure, even after you are baptised you can still be a slave to sin. If you were an alcoholic when you were baptised, and you don't sign up for rehab, insist on staying an alcoholic, because you enjoy your addiction, you are without a doubt a slave to your addiction. So both those in Christ as well as unbelievers can be slaves to sin. I don't know how you can claim that those who are without Christ can not make up their mind to give up alcoholism or any other sin.

                                John 8:34 is a teaching that even if you promise to follow Jesus, you still have to change yourself, even more than if you were an unbeliever. However, the situation Jesus is talking about is a different type of sin.

                                John 8:31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

                                34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

                                Jesus is saying that those who did not enter rest were sinful, because Rest is the status of being without sin, because only the pure can be in the presence of God. Rest is what is entered when you pass a test. Abraham and Caleb passed a test, but Scripture says that even they did not receive what was promised, because Jesus had still not cleansed the new humanity in Christ, the Body of Christ, of which mercy seat, kapporeth, hilesterion, Ark, Temple, Land, Jerusalem from above, were types.

                                Hebrews 11:9And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

                                Quote
                                We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                                https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

                                So when Jesus talks about being a slave or being a son, he is talking about those who have been baptised by John, have been certified as righteous according to the Law. who follow both the minor points of the Law without neglecting the weightier requirements, justice, mercy and faithfulness, unlike the Pharisees who were looking to entitlement, because of being descendants of Abraham, according to the flesh, circumcision. Now a new righteousness according to grace was required, which mandated belief that God would bring a person into Rest if they did not disobey like Israel:

                                1 Corinthians 10:
                                5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

                                Hebrews 3:5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. 7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
                                “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

                                8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
                                AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

                                9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
                                AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

                                10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
                                AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
                                AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

                                11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
                                ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”



                                Romans 3:21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;







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