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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (God).
    Dave........all you have are quotes,one-liners, but no insight into those quotes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      That's a temptation, not sin. He didn't say he followed through on it. And obviously got rid of it.
      You must be aware of the oh-too-many evangelical type preachers, born again, who sinned, had to give tearful apologies and were ruined in many cases.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        That's a temptation, not sin. He didn't say he followed through on it. And obviously got rid of it.
        These are believers who have been filled with the Holy Spirit, yet they sinned, beyond redemption:

        Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

        Obviously, both you and I continue to sin:

        1 John 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

        How do we harmonise that with this:

        1 John 5:18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

        Those who taste of the power of the Holy Spirit, like Israel who saw God's great works, when He caused them to thirst and hunger, and then rescued them, or when Abraham was put into danger and then rescued, had a different spirit, were born again, then allowed to enter Rest. This Rest was only a type, the real Rest was created when Christ cleansed the Old Adam to create the New Man in Christ.


        Quote
        We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


        https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

        This is like the mercy seat of the Tabernacle, which when it was sprinkled with blood allowed Israel to be in union with God, made them sinless, because only the pure can see God. Today, those who are IN Christ can have their sins PASSED OVER, and they can be in union with God, to be considered sinless, and have the ability to subdue the earth, turn people to God:

        1 Cor 14:24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
        Last edited by footwasher; 10-22-2020, 09:35 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          These are believers who have been filled with the Holy Spirit, yet they sinned, beyond redemption:

          Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

          Obviously, both you and I continue to sin:

          1 John 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

          How do we harmonise that with this:

          1 John 5:18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

          Those who taste of the power of the Holy Spirit, like Israel who saw God's great works, when He caused them to thirst and hunger, and then rescued them, or when Abraham was put into danger and then rescued, had a different spirit, were born again, then allowed to enter Rest. This Rest was only a type, the real Rest was created when Christ cleansed the Old Adam to create the New Man in Christ.


          Quote
          We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).


          https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

          This is like the mercy seat of the Tabernacle, which when it was sprinkled with blood allowed Israel to be in union with God, made them sinless, because only the pure can see God. Today, those who are IN Christ can have their sins PASSED OVER, and they can be in union with God, to be considered sinless, and have the ability to subdue the earth, turn people to God:

          1 Cor 14:24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
          Hebrews 6 is about Jews who heard the word and dabbled in it. But defected back to Judaism. They were never saved. If a person is saved they cannot become lost.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by thormas View Post

            You must be aware of the oh-too-many evangelical type preachers, born again, who sinned, had to give tearful apologies and were ruined in many cases.
            Prove they were born again. Their conduct proves they were not.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by thormas View Post

              Dave........all you have are quotes,one-liners, but no insight into those quotes.
              I keep it simple. Less for you to get a hold of.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                I keep it simple. Less for you to get a hold of.
                Thus you're not really a serious person............and I have lost interest.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                  Thus you're not really a serious person............and I have lost interest.
                  I've been around the block on "Christian" forums for too many years to take the bait from many challengers.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    Hebrews 6 is about Jews who heard the word and dabbled in it. But defected back to Judaism. They were never saved. If a person is saved they cannot become lost.
                    Hardly.
                    They were enlightened.
                    They tasted the heavenly gift.
                    They partook of the Holy Spirit.
                    They tasted the Gospel, both its promise and its power.
                    ​​​​​
                    Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

                    Even you haven't experienced as much salvation as they did, because you have never been baptised in trusting Christ, easily noticed, like Paul noticed, knew that the believers in Acts 19 had not been so baptised:

                    Acts 19:1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

                    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”


                    3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

                    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

                    4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                      Hardly.
                      They were enlightened.
                      They tasted the heavenly gift.
                      They partook of the Holy Spirit.
                      They tasted the Gospel, both its promise and its power.
                      ​​​​​
                      Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

                      Even you haven't experienced as much salvation as they did, because you have never been baptised in trusting Christ, easily noticed, like Paul noticed, knew that the believers in Acts 19 had not been so baptised:

                      Acts 19:1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

                      They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”


                      3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

                      “John’s baptism,” they replied.

                      4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied.
                      “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NCPB)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                        “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NCPB)
                        First of all, you haven't been born again. You need to have made the promise to trust God, resulting in receiving faith strengthening nourishment from the Holy Spirit, when, if you accept the edification, your trust will be built up, you will be born again, like Caleb and Abraham, and you will pass the test, like they did. Or allow your worldly fear to destroy your promise, like Israel, and never enter Rest.

                        Rest is the reality of which the mercy seat was a type, a foreshadowing. When the blood of bulls and goats was sprinkled on this, and on the tabernacle, and the camp and the people, God accepted it as the cleansing required for Israel to be close to Him, not separated like Adam. Now they could be blessings to the world, like Adam. However, this really did not happen, because the real Rest was yet to be made. The blood of bulls and goats doesnt, cannot, wash away sins, cover it, so that God does not see it. Only the blood of Jesus can do it. So those who are in the real mercy seat, IN Christ, have their sins covered, PASSED OVER, just like the Destroyer passed over the houses of the Israelites, marked by the blood of the Paschal Lamb.

                        You don't stop sinning. However, your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. If you enter Rest. Which you can if you have a different spirit, are born again. Which enables you to pass the test. Which allows God to give you entry into His Kingdom.

                        Numbers 14: 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
                        Last edited by footwasher; 10-22-2020, 05:17 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                          First of all, you haven't been born again. You need to have made the promise to trust God, resulting in receiving faith strengthening nourishment from the Holy Spirit, when, if you accept the edification, your trust will be built up, you will be born again, like Caleb and Abraham, and you will pass the test, like they did. Or allow your worldly fear to destroy your promise, like Israel, and never enter Rest.

                          Rest is the reality of which the mercy seat was a type, a foreshadowing. When the blood of bulls and goats was sprinkled on this, and on the tabernacle, and the camp and the people, God accepted it as the cleansing required for Israel to be close to Him, not separated like Adam. Now they could be blessings to the world, like Adam. However, this really did not happen, because the real Rest was yet to be made. The blood of bulls and goats doesnt, cannot, wash away sins, cover it, so that God does not see it. Only the blood of Jesus can do it. So those who are in the real mercy seat, IN Christ, have their sins covered, PASSED OVER, just like the Destroyer passed over the houses of the Israelites, marked by the blood of the Paschal Lamb.

                          You don't stop sinning. However, your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. If you enter Rest. Which you can if you have a different spirit, are born again. Which enables you to pass the test. Which allows God to give you entry into His Kingdom.

                          Numbers 14: 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
                          This is not true. God saved me over a period of three days from out of the blue. I wasn't religious and went out of my way to avoid the typical "Christian" of that day. I began experiencing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that EXPERIENCE caused me to believe in Christ until this day. You cannot believe in any true sense unless first born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            This is not true. God saved me over a period of three days from out of the blue. I wasn't religious and went out of my way to avoid the typical "Christian" of that day. I began experiencing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that EXPERIENCE caused me to believe in Christ until this day. You cannot believe in any true sense unless first born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
                            God promised Abraham that his descendants would be blessings to the world. He promised Israel that He had a country for them to enter. It's not possible that the plan changed, so entering the Promised Land must be the Way for God's People to be blessings to the world. The Promised Land is like the mercy seat, making believers sinless, covering their sin, because only the pure can see God. So when Adam was in the Garden, he was pure and could bring the world to submit to God. Similarly when we are in the Body of Christ, we can also subdue the world:

                            1 Cor 14:24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

                            When you share the Gospel, why should anyone believe you unless they can see God is with you, in the great works He does, in healing or explaining difficult Scriptures, which you can only do if you are IN Christ, in the real Promised Land?

                            John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”



                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              God promised Abraham that his descendants would be blessings to the world. He promised Israel that He had a country for them to enter. It's not possible that the plan changed, so entering the Promised Land must be the Way for God's People to be blessings to the world. The Promised Land is like the mercy seat, making believers sinless, covering their sin, because only the pure can see God. So when Adam was in the Garden, he was pure and could bring the world to submit to God. Similarly when we are in the Body of Christ, we can also subdue the world:

                              1 Cor 14:24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

                              When you share the Gospel, why should anyone believe you unless they can see God is with you, in the great works He does, in healing or explaining difficult Scriptures, which you can only do if you are IN Christ, in the real Promised Land?

                              John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”


                              Did you know the whole world became the promised land when God removed unbelieving Jews and added believing Gentiles in their place? Did you ever consider the promises outrun little Caanan? Did you consider it is only a symbol of heaven? It says Abraham looked for a better country, namely heaven.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Did you know the whole world became the promised land when God removed unbelieving Jews and added believing Gentiles in their place? Did you ever consider the promises outrun little Caanan? Did you consider it is only a symbol of heaven? It says Abraham looked for a better country, namely heaven.
                                Give Scripture to support your claims.

                                Comment

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