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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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Room within the will of God?

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  • #16
    I'm not against being imitators of Christ. However, the initial verse from John spoke more of Jesus' unique role as the Logos of God who wanted the disciple to realize these things were not of man's wisdom.

    Other verses properly convey how we can imitate Jesus' mindset, actions and behaviors. These things we have to discover in our own fashion while having the mind of Christ.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      Other verses properly convey how we can imitate Jesus' mindset, actions and behaviors. These things we have to discover in our own fashion while having the mind of Christ.
      I'm trying to discover them! And it does seem Scripture gives us clear indications as to what the mind of Christ was, as he went about the earth.

      "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." (Jn 7:17–18)

      "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (Jn 12:49–50)

      So Jesus did not even speak on his own, but rather spoke what the Father told him to say. And in saying "Whoever speaks on his own...", he applied this to us!

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        From John Woolman's Journal:

        "No man can see God and live." This was spoken by the Almighty to Moses the prophet and opened by our blessed Redeemer. As death comes on our own wills, and a new life is formed in us, the heart is purified and prepared to understand clearly, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

        I then heard a soft melodious voice, more pure and harmonious than any I had heard with my ears before; I believed it was the voice of an angel who spake to the other angels; the words were, "John Woolman is dead." I greatly wondered what that heavenly voice could mean. I believed beyond doubting that it was the voice of a holy angel, but as yet it was a mystery to me. I then said, "I am crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Then the mystery was opened and I perceived there was joy in heaven over a sinner who had repented, and that the language "John Woolman is dead," meant no more than the death of my own will.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Well, this is getting off-topic, but notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)

          And you have yet to address "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin", and the other verses, and you have yet to quote any Scripture. If you want to discuss this further, let's open a thread on free-will.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          The Law itself assumes people have the ability to disobey it. If you have no free will then any disobedience would just be God willing you to disobey. We would be merely puppets and salvation a play. It wouldn't mean anything. To me, that would make God evil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            The Law itself assumes people have the ability to disobey it. If you have no free will then any disobedience would just be God willing you to disobey. We would be merely puppets and salvation a play. It wouldn't mean anything. To me, that would make God evil.
            Opening a thread on free will...

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              It does seem that there will be free will eventually, for Jesus now, and for his children who overcome, in the future:

              “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Mt 28:18)

              "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Rev. 3:21)

              "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall." (Mal. 4:2)

              "... the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Rom. 8:21)

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                But is there is room for free choices within the will of God? That is the question.


                Yes, and Jesus prayed "Not my will, but Yours be done." (Luke 22:42)


                And I have believed this for most of my Christian life. Yet one of the things God told us to do is "Be imitators of God" (Eph. 5:1), or as Paul said it, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1).

                "So Jesus answered them, 'I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise.' " (John 5:19)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                It would appear so...Joshua 24:15: 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  It would appear so...Joshua 24:15: 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
                  But in either case, they are serving! Not choosing what they will do.

                  "Show me the way I should go,
                  for to you I lift up my soul." (Ps. 143:8)

                  "LORD, I know that people’s lives are not their own;
                  it is not for them to direct their steps." (Jer. 10:23)

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    But in either case, they are serving! Not choosing what they will do.

                    "Show me the way I should go,
                    for to you I lift up my soul." (Ps. 143:8)

                    "LORD, I know that people’s lives are not their own;
                    it is not for them to direct their steps." (Jer. 10:23)

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    That's disingenuous Lee. The text clearly demands they CHOOSE whom they will serve. Choosing to serve or whom to serve, is free will within the Will of God. Not sure how you can avoid that. Your ability to rip verses from their context to make them say what you want seems to know no bounds. Jeremiah 10 is a prophecy of doom for Israel for accepting false idols. God had enough and pronounced His judgement. No one, including God says that choices do not have consequences.
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      That's disingenuous Lee. The text clearly demands they CHOOSE whom they will serve. Choosing to serve or whom to serve, is free will within the Will of God. Not sure how you can avoid that. Your ability to rip verses from their context to make them say what you want seems to know no bounds. Jeremiah 10 is a prophecy of doom for Israel for accepting false idols. God had enough and pronounced His judgement. No one, including God says that choices do not have consequences.
                      That was a little harsh but accurate. I have found that the God's sovereignty side tends to start with the conclusion and then fit the verses to their conclusion. So in the example verse, "chose this day whom you will serve", chose doesn't mean chose as a free will chose. The word play is vaguely gnostic - there's hidden knowledge that only the initiate knows.

                      I would be a fool to say God's sovereignty doesn't exist. The best I can come up with is God in His sovereigncy has decided in some areas He is not going to be sovereign. This is also an issue I've decided I'll never understand this side of Heaven.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        That's disingenuous Lee. The text clearly demands they CHOOSE whom they will serve. Choosing to serve or whom to serve, is free will within the Will of God. Not sure how you can avoid that.
                        Well, is God's choice behind our choice in salvation? Notice how all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part.

                        But notice that there is only one choice here within God's will, to choose to serve him. If we obey God, that is the choice we will make, his will is not simply that we choose to serve someone, but that we choose to serve him.

                        Yet my question is for those who serve God, is there room within God's will?

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          So in the example verse, "chose this day whom you will serve", chose doesn't mean chose as a free will chose. The word play is vaguely gnostic - there's hidden knowledge that only the initiate knows.
                          Well, read on!

                          "Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD." (Jos. 24:19)

                          So it seems there is more going on here than a simple choice, notice also that "choose whom you will serve" is about choosing which idols they will serve! "... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell."

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Well, read on!

                            "Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD." (Jos. 24:19)

                            So it seems there is more going on here than a simple choice, notice also that "choose whom you will serve" is about choosing which idols they will serve! "... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell."

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Well, let's do some more reading:

                            "But the people said to Joshua, "No! We will serve the Lord. Then Joshua said, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord." "Yes, we are witnesses," they replied. "Now then," said Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel." And the people said to Joshua, "We will serve the Lord our God and obey him" On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he reaffirmed for them decrees and laws." - Joshua 24:21-25

                            Apparently God gives us a choice to do something that He knows we aren't capable of achieving.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              Apparently God gives us a choice to do something that He knows we aren't capable of achieving.
                              Indeed, repentance is by the grace of God:

                              "But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear." (Dt. 29:4)

                              But back to the topic of the thread, once we are in the will of God, is there room for free choices within his will? Are we able to act on our own initiative, when Jesus did not?

                              "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." (Jn 8:28)

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Well, is God's choice behind our choice in salvation?
                                Yes, God's choice is for everyone to come to repentance, see 2 Peter 3:9. And again, Joshua's charge to Israel "...Choose this day..."


                                Notice how all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part.
                                No, please be specific.


                                But notice that there is only one choice here within God's will, to choose to serve him. If we obey God, that is the choice we will make, his will is not simply that we choose to serve someone, but that we choose to serve him.
                                Your own theology decries you Lee...according to your theology it's God's will that some choose not to serve him...how do you escape that paradox?


                                Yet my question is for those who serve God, is there room within God's will?
                                Blessings,
                                Lee

                                I'm taking it as a given that you are a brother in Christ so....is every choice you make in God's will? Are you free from committing acts that are considered sin? I'm not, though I strive to be...
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                                Comment

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