Cornelius and Total Depravity

[Dave L]

But then how would true love be manifested? God created a garden because He wanted true love to appear. With your schema, it wouldn't be possible. True love must emanate from the plant. In other words, the first cause must be the plant, not the Gardener. If it was the Gardener, if He only wanted the effect, not the reality, He might as well have stuck the fruit on the plant. What does the text say? The greatest of these is love. That's why we want the real McCoy, not the Mickey mouse version.

God hates sinners. If they were lovable, they would share in God's glory. But God set his love on some he hates and went to the cross to pay for their sins so he could change them into lovable beings. We should not steal God's glory in salvation and apply it to ourselves.

[footwasher]

God hates sinners. If they were lovable, they would share in God's glory. But God set his love on some he hates and went to the cross to pay for their sins so he could change them into lovable beings. We should not steal God's glory in salvation and apply it to ourselves.

I think God loves the manifestation of true love and righteousness more than He values adoration and praise. He is not narcissistic or an ego maniac. He is going to be shocked at the bad picture some of us paint of Him.

[Dave L]

I think God loves the manifestation of true love and righteousness more than He values adoration and praise. He is not narcissistic or an ego maniac. He is going to be shocked at the bad picture some of us paint of Him.

How do you know you are not creating a god to your liking?

[footwasher]

How do you know you are not creating a god to your liking?

Because the text says, "God is love'
and

"The greatest of this is love".

[Dave L]

Because the text says, "God is love'
and

"The greatest of this is love".

How can you measure love with out having sin as a gauge to measure it by? If You are not all that bad as you suggest, God is not all that good either. You share his glory. Thankfully you are wrong as can be.

[footwasher]

How can you measure love with out having sin as a gauge to measure it by? If You are not all that bad as you suggest, God is not all that good either. You share his glory. Thankfully you are wrong as can be.

Actually I do measure love by measuring sin.

Jesus said if we love Him, we would be obedient, righteous.

So the more righteous we are, the more love we show.

And vice versa.

As for God not being all that good because we are not all that bad, read my lips: non sequitur, does not follow.

God is all that good because He wants us to be good. If God wants otherwise...that's creepy. Game over, dood!

Psalm 78:39He remembered that they were but flesh, a passing breeze that does not return.

Psalm 103:13Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.14For He Himself knows our frame;
He is mindful that we are but dust.

[Dave L]

Actually I do measure love by measuring sin.

Jesus said if we love Him, we would be obedient, righteous.

Do the more righteous we are, the more love we show.

And vice versa.

This is not possible before the New Birth. People only mimic faith and righteousness, called self-righteousness, towards their idols they think are Jesus unless first saved by grace.

[footwasher]

This is not possible before the New Birth. People only mimic faith and righteousness, called self-righteousness, towards their idols they think are Jesus unless first saved by grace.

Caleb profited from the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, received by hearing with belief , and then had a different spirit, did create that faith, became born again. So new birth after receiving the ministry of the Spirit. Your fight is with God's word, not me.

[brightfame52]

I fully agree. Only those ordained to eternal life are his sheep. Act 13:48

Of course, all of the above are the Sheep just with different titles

[brightfame52]

God hates sinners. If they were lovable, they would share in God's glory. But God set his love on some he hates and went to the cross to pay for their sins so he could change them into lovable beings. We should not steal God's glory in salvation and apply it to ourselves.

Dave do you believe God hated the elect before ?

[Dave L]

Caleb profited from the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, received by hearing with belief , and then had a different spirit, did create that faith, became born again. So new birth after receiving the ministry of the Spirit. Your fight is with God's word, not me.

Spiritually dead people (all born in Adam) must be born-again (saved) before they can believe at a spiritual level. The Flesh's faith is depraved and no different than Cain's sacrifice spawned by human faith.

[footwasher]

Spiritually dead people (all born in Adam) must be born-again (saved) before they can believe at a spiritual level. The Flesh's faith is depraved and no different than Cain's sacrifice spawned by human faith.

Give Scriptural support.

The real process is that believers must bear the fruit of faith, after receiving the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit. They must be changed people, trusting people, have a different spirit, be born again, to be allowed into the Kingdom:

Numbers 14:20The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

John 3:3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit ^b gives birth to spirit.

Believing leads to be given the Spirit. The ministry of the Spirit helps us to be born again. We must not keep the ministry of the Spirit in our hearts, like Caleb, to bear the fruit of faith, not forget God's great works, like the rest of Israel, like Chorazin and Bethseda, who were fruitless, did not grow faith.

Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

[Dave L]

Give Scriptural support.

The real process is that believers must bear the fruit of faith, after receiving the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit. They must be changed people, trusting people, have a different spirit, be born again, to be allowed into the Kingdom:

Numbers 14:20The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

John 3:3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit ^b gives birth to spirit.

Believing leads to be given the Spirit. The ministry of the Spirit helps us to be born again. We must not keep the ministry of the Spirit in our hearts, like Caleb, to bear the fruit of faith, not forget God's great works, like the rest of Israel, like Chorazin and Bethseda, who were fruitless, did not grow faith.

Galatians 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

This is everyone except Christ by nature. Notice faith does not exist. The closest is idol worship.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (KJV 1900)

Notice faith happens after a complete change wrought by God.

[footwasher]

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

This is everyone except Christ by nature. Notice faith does not exist. The closest is idol worship.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (KJV 1900)

Notice faith happens after a complete change wrought by God.

But Cornelius was not an idol worshipper before he received the Holy Spirit. He was righteous before it happened:

Acts 10:1Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]cohort, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and made many charitable contributions to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
....

You can see God told him he was living a life resulting in gains that rusts and perishes. He began to seek God, as God hoped people who love the light would. God then sent Peter to teach him the Gospel. He heard and believed. And received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit.
....

Acts 10:34Opening his mouth, Peter said:

“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the one who [v]fears Him and [w]does what is right is acceptable to Him. 36The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching [x]peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37you yourselves know the thing that happened throughout Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38[y]You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, [z]and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39We are witnesses of all the things that He did both in the [aa]country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on [ab]a cross. 40God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He [ac]be revealed, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses who had been chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He ordered us to [ad]preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles.

[Dave L]

But Cornelius was not an idol worshipper before he received the Holy Spirit. He was righteous before it happened:

Acts 10:1Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]cohort, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and made many charitable contributions to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
....

You can see God told him he was living a life resulting in gains that rusts and perishes. He began to seek God, as God hoped people who love the light would. God then sent Peter to teach him the Gospel. He heard and believed. And received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit.
....

Acts 10:34Opening his mouth, Peter said:

“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the one who [v]fears Him and [w]does what is right is acceptable to Him. 36The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching [x]peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37you yourselves know the thing that happened throughout Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38[y]You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, [z]and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39We are witnesses of all the things that He did both in the [aa]country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on [ab]a cross. 40God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He [ac]be revealed, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses who had been chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He ordered us to [ad]preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles.

Cornelius was born again before he heard Peter preach. Had he not been, his works would have been as filthy rags. And he would not have believed Peter.