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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Eternal Functional Subordination of the Son

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  • The Eternal Functional Subordination of the Son

    The Eternal Functional Subordination of the Son is the teaching that Jesus Christ has always been in submission to God the Father throughout all eternity. This view does not teach that Jesus is a lesser God. This view holds that Jesus is God just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. Jesus is co-equal in essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit. This view makes the distinction between someone's essence and someone's role. Advocates of this view say that Jesus is equal in essence with the Father, but He has the role of submitting to the Father and He has been doing this through all eternity. They say that Jesus's submission to the Father for all of eternity does not imply that He is less than God.

    Opponents of this view say the following:
    Jesus's submission to the Father mentioned in the Gospels have to do with the Incarnation only. Jesus's submission to the Father only pertains to His humanity, not to His divinity.
    If Jesus's submission to the Father is eternal, then this would jeopardize His essence. One's role is grounded in one's essence.
    If Jesus's submission to the Father is eternal, then this would imply that there are different degrees of authority within the Godhead and that there are different degrees of being divine.
    If Jesus's submission to the Father is eternal, then this would imply that the divine will is divided.

    What do you think about this? Does the submission of Jesus to the Father pertain only to His humanity or pertain to both His humanity and divinity?
    Last edited by Hornet; 11-13-2019, 07:22 PM.

  • #2
    Was this ever even an issue before patriarchalists wanted a way to argue against egalitarians on the basis of relationships in the godhead?
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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    • #3
      Was this even an issue before egalitarians wanted to rule out 'equal but subordinate'?
      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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      • #4
        Participants in the complementarianism debate make far too much of this. Appealing to the Trinity just to make an analogy doesn't seem like a strong argument for two reasons - one, it's just an analogy in the first place, and two, the Bible doesn't go into a whole lot of detail about how the Trinity interacts, so it just seems speculative.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #5
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Was this ever even an issue before patriarchalists wanted a way to argue against egalitarians on the basis of relationships in the godhead?
          I don't know if it was an issue before then.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
            Was this even an issue before egalitarians wanted to rule out 'equal but subordinate'?
            I don't know if it was an issue before then.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Participants in the complementarianism debate make far too much of this. Appealing to the Trinity just to make an analogy doesn't seem like a strong argument for two reasons - one, it's just an analogy in the first place, and two, the Bible doesn't go into a whole lot of detail about how the Trinity interacts, so it just seems speculative.
              There is already a lot of passages in the Bible that discusses the role of husbands and wives. There is no need to appeal to the Trinity in order to prove what role husbands and wives should have.

              What do you think of 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says, "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." Does "God is the head of Christ" mean that God the Father has authority over Christ? If so, is it referring to Christ with respect to His humanity, with respect to His divinity, or with respect to both.
              Last edited by Hornet; 11-14-2019, 12:35 PM.

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              • #8
                1 Corinthians 15:

                For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death. 27 For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. 17 But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
                The plan for eternity future is eternal subordination.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  1 Corinthians 15:



                  The plan for eternity future is eternal subordination.
                  If Jesus has been in subjection to the Father for all of eternity, would this imply that Jesus possesses a divine attribute in a lesser degree compared with the Father?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                    If Jesus has been in subjection to the Father for all of eternity, would this imply that Jesus possesses a divine attribute in a lesser degree compared with the Father?
                    Rather than subordination, might difference in function, or maybe in relation, be a more promising topic to explore ? The Son is “from” the Father, as is the Spirit; and the Father is from no source at all. That need not imply subordination, but rather a difference in relation “within” God.

                    As for the 1 Cor.15 passage, I think that has more to do with the exercise of Divine Kingship over creatures, and so, with the “functions” of the Divine Persons toward creatures, than with ontological subordination “within” God. The Sonship of Christ is after all an aspect of His Davidic Kingship - even if it is not exhausted by that. The authority of the Son of Man in Daniel 7 is to last forever and to be exercised over all nations, peoples, tribes and tongues - compare that of the Lamb in Rev. 5.
                    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-23-2019, 12:21 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                      If Jesus has been in subjection to the Father for all of eternity, would this imply that Jesus possesses a divine attribute in a lesser degree compared with the Father?
                      No.
                      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                      • #12
                        There are two eternal truths regarding the Persons who are the one God (YHWH). As God there is never any subordination. As Persons there has always been subordination.

                        A key reference that reveals this is John 1:1-2. The Word we know to be the eternal Son was always not subordinate in that the Word always "was God." And was always subordinate in that the Word was always "with God."


                        That God is one Essence John 4:24.

                        And we who are Christians in this know God Himself, Romans 8:9, 16.
                        Last edited by 37818; 01-01-2020, 11:14 PM.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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                        • #13
                          Edited by a Moderator

                          Moderated By: Sparko


                          Hakeem, you can't post in this thread. Or this area.

                          Our rules for this area (see bolded parts)

                          Theology 201 Guidelines

                          This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

                          While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

                          Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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                          You can only post here if you argue within the framework of orthodox Christianity. You are not doing that.

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                          Last edited by Sparko; 01-24-2020, 03:33 PM.

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