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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Work Out Your Salvation with Fear and Trembling

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Let's hear your perspectives (Philippians 2)
    Jesus taught humility was the right attitude about ability to do the job:

    NETBible Matthew 6:13 And do not lead us into temptation, *1 but deliver us from the evil one.

    *1or "time of testing".

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    • #17
      Quote
      The amazing story of Charles Blondin, a famous French tightrope walker, is a wonderful illustration of what true faith is.

      Blondin’s greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat.

      He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times… each time with a different daring feat – once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

      A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across – one dangerous step after another – pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

      Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd’s applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

      Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: “Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?”

      The crowd enthusiastically yelled, “Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!”

      “Okay,” said Blondin, “Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow.”

      As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/inspire...din-story/amp/

      This story is often used to illustrate faith. The moral is that true believers are the ones who actually are faithful, who took the risk.

      So the fleshed out steps are:

      A)Jesus offers heaven to those who believe He can.

      B)Believer obeys.

      C)Believer goes to heaven.

      The part about working out your salvation with fear and trembling comes in somewhat outside the narrative:

      X)Manifest good works to know your belief is real!

      Apparently real belief is linked (arbitrarily, indirectly: seriously, what is the connection between morality and real belief in the ability of Christ?) with doing good works. To avoid being called a Roman Catholic adherent (imagine the hoops we have to jump through and the fudging!) we convey in advance that our works are not the criteria of salvation. It's evidence of our faith, a specious argument, since we have already stated that belief is about Jesus's ability to save.

      Again, what does our "good works" have to do with THAT belief, logically?

      The problem with the analogy is that the request for volunteers is a test, not salvation. If you agree to confirm your faith by crossing with the walker, then you are given the ability to carry others across, be a blessing to the world, live the life with substance, have eternal life. We can identify this stage in Abraham and Caleb's lives.

      Baptism gives access to viewing the walker's great works, eating spiritual food, drinking spiritual water, and the source is Christ. Working out your salvation is keeping them in your heart, like Caleb and Mary. Repenting is meta noia, having a diffrent mindset, a different spirit, again like Caleb. So when you hear the voice, see the approach of the opposing king, are informed of the challenge, face judgement, are asked to step out on the tightrope, are in the time of testing:

      Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
      “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

      8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
      AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

      9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
      AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

      10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
      AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
      AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

      11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
      ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”
      Last edited by footwasher; 07-26-2020, 11:15 AM.

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