Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostDid Abraham and other prophets know of John 3:16? Obviously not!
Originally posted by Esther View PostI am asking whether any person who reads or hears John 3:16 can simply believe and be saved. I say yes. The Holy Spirit can then enter them, lead them and they will find themselves hungering and thirsting for righteousness and want to hear and read more of the Word.
1 Corinthians 3:3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
This is what you must believe, that God rescues, and people who see you being raised up, like Rahab and Nicodemus, will say, “We want to be like you, because God is with you, and you are able to live lives which results in treasure which does not perish, eternal life”.
Jesus's response: you'll have to be in the Kingdom of God, Rest in God.
Which will happen if you prove your oath of loyalty is true.
Which will happen if you are born again.
Which will happen if you remember God's great works of rescuing.
Which you will see, if you are baptised in the name of Christ, believe that God raises those who pick up the cross He gives.Last edited by footwasher; 08-19-2020, 11:05 AM.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostPlease let me know where the videos are once they're posted. I'd like to take a look.
The challenge is that, when you are witnessing to somebody in person, you can get an immediate sense of "are they with me", or does that point need more explanation...
Example... on the concept that "you have to get them lost before you can get them saved" - when you mention that there is none righteous, and we are all sinners, it would be great to see a nod, "yeah, I know *I'M* a sinner.... then you can move on...
But I had somebody just this morning argue that "they don't need to admit they're lost".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat tends to make John 3:16 seem like "the magic verse" or something -- I think you're on better foundation by acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is key. I think I'm in the minority here sometimes when, for example, I don't think somebody has to affirm the virgin birth to be saved.
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Originally posted by Esther View PostMy asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation were and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Esther View PostMy asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.
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Originally posted by Chiefsinner View PostJohn 8:56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Did anybody among the prophets or the people of the old testament know Jesus?
NO, Sir! Because Jesus was only revealed through the gospel during the time of the apostles! Apostle Peter is witness as he said in 1Peter 1:20. None among the prophets of old knew about the truth of the Godhead. Jesus himself said so, and it was Christ himself who revealed the Father unto us (John 1:18). And so, 1John 5:20 says,
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and HATH GIVEN US UNDERSTANDING, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and ETERNAL LIFE.”
So the knowledge and understanding of the true Godhead is the Eternal Life itself!
It is not knowing God that you propose to mean of knowing as Adam knew Eve. I believe you are espousing an estrange doctrine with that.
Now, NONE can know God except God, or Christ, reveals it unto us (Luke 10:22, Mat 11:27). So the salvation, which is knowing God, TOTALLY rests in God. We are given the gospel to know God, yet to gain understanding was given to whom will be given (Matt 13:10-12). Thus is why Faith, which is the knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, is a gift! Our salvation is a gift. Since it is God himself who gives knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, he can save anyone from any generation, any tribe, even unto them who have not heard of the Gospel.
Your wrong view of salvation implies lack of knowledge of the truth about the Godhead.Last edited by FarEastBird; 08-29-2020, 12:31 AM....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by Esther View PostMy asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostIn order for a person to have a “salvific belief” is to have the FAITH which Heb 11:6 described: “he that cometh to God must BELIEVE THAT HE IS.”
The belief that we should possess is NOT A TRUST, but rather the “knowledge and understanding of the Godhead.” Thus is the reason why our salvation is knowing who God and Jesus are (John 17:3). The reason we are saved through the gospel is because the gospel is the revelation of Jesus, and that Jesus is the express image of God (2Cor4:3-6).
Did anybody among the prophets or the people of the old testament know Jesus?
NO, Sir! Because Jesus was only revealed through the gospel during the time of the apostles! Apostle Peter is witness as he said in 1Peter 1:20. None among the prophets of old knew about the truth of the Godhead. Jesus himself said so, and it was Christ himself who revealed the Father unto us (John 1:18). And so, 1John 5:20 says,
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and HATH GIVEN US UNDERSTANDING, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and ETERNAL LIFE.”20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.
John 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
So the knowledge and understanding of the true Godhead is the Eternal Life itself!
It is not knowing God that you propose to mean of knowing as Adam knew Eve. I believe you are espousing an estrange doctrine with that.
John 17:20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Now, NONE can know God except God, or Christ, reveals it unto us (Luke 10:22, Mat 11:27). So the salvation, which is knowing God, TOTALLY rests in God. We are given the gospel to know God, yet to gain understanding was given to whom will be given (Matt 13:10-12). Thus is why Faith, which is the knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, is a gift! Our salvation is a gift. Since it is God himself who gives knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, he can save anyone from any generation, any tribe, even unto them who have not heard of the Gospel.
Your wrong view of salvation implies lack of knowledge of the truth about the Godhead.
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Originally posted by Chiefsinner View PostThis simply means people should believe God exists.
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You need to reexamine my responses and give a fair sense of understanding. Else you are not probably understanding my arguments at all....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Being really late to the party....
Jacob was chosen to fulfill covenant, not to eternal life. Esau was rejected for fulfilling covenant (in spite of being the oldest). Again, nothing to do with eternal life. God occasionally chooses individuals to perform certain roles, sometimes before they were born.
This is mentioned in Romans 9 as a parallel to the two groups within the nation of Israel, the remnant, like Jacob, chosen to fulfill covenant. The rest, like Esau, rejected for fulfilling covenant. This is why the question of whether God is just comes up.
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Originally posted by themuzicman View PostBeing really late to the party....
Jacob was chosen to fulfill covenant, not to eternal life. Esau was rejected for fulfilling covenant (in spite of being the oldest). Again, nothing to do with eternal life. God occasionally chooses individuals to perform certain roles, sometimes before they were born.
This is mentioned in Romans 9 as a parallel to the two groups within the nation of Israel, the remnant, like Jacob, chosen to fulfill covenant. The rest, like Esau, rejected for fulfilling covenant. This is why the question of whether God is just comes up.
So nations, groups, corporate entities, not individuals, are chosen to perform certain roles, and the choice is arbitrary. Esau never served Jacob, but the nation he formed, Edom, WAS enslaved by Israel.
Before Israel had done anything good or bad, she was chosen, to be disobedient. Then why is she blamed? Who is Israel to ask why she was set up to disbelieve in Messiah? Doesn't the Potter have the right to make from SAME lump of clay whatever He chooses, to be a vessel of dishonor, even?
Second, the remnant are not Christians. They are faithful Jews, who believed God's teaching that all the Law had to be followed, both the minor points as well as the weightier issues, justice, mercy and loyalty. According to the Law, righteous. As opposed to the others, who used a technicality, that children of Abraham were identified by circumcision, dietary and purity laws, and were unconditionally destined to be given the blessing. Even today, there are remnants in Judaism. If it were not so, Israel would have gone the way of Sodom and Gomorrah, vanished.
The Law was given to be a guardian. It never ceased to be one, even after Jesus was sent. Israel disobeyed, as she was meant to, to allow the entry of the Gentiles, but she did not become extinct. God's word has not failed, her hardening is only temporary. When the right number of Gentiles are gathered, the hardening will be lifted.Last edited by footwasher; 09-26-2020, 11:41 PM.
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