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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Yes, certainly Jesus is both. Since we're all human, we do one or the other better.

    Thinking about your video, the one I would do if I ever got the gumption would be "I'm saved, now what?"
    Good idea! Because I plan on having several versions to rotate each Sunday.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
      Did Abraham and other prophets know of John 3:16? Obviously not!
      John 8:56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

      Originally posted by Esther View Post
      I am asking whether any person who reads or hears John 3:16 can simply believe and be saved. I say yes. The Holy Spirit can then enter them, lead them and they will find themselves hungering and thirsting for righteousness and want to hear and read more of the Word.
      There's a claim in the content of the belief that John 3:16 wants to be believed. Jesus is claiming that: if you pick up the cross, God will raise you up, and the world will be drawn to God. What He is not saying is: if you believe I can give you eternal life, then you will get eternal life, like Zane Hodges claims. The Gospel writers are laying down a record of what Jesus said to support the teachings of the Apostles. So John 3:16 is supporting what 1 Cor 15:3-5 is saying:

      1 Corinthians 3:3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

      This is what you must believe, that God rescues, and people who see you being raised up, like Rahab and Nicodemus, will say, “We want to be like you, because God is with you, and you are able to live lives which results in treasure which does not perish, eternal life”.

      Jesus's response: you'll have to be in the Kingdom of God, Rest in God.

      Which will happen if you prove your oath of loyalty is true.

      Which will happen if you are born again.

      Which will happen if you remember God's great works of rescuing.

      Which you will see, if you are baptised in the name of Christ, believe that God raises those who pick up the cross He gives.
      Last edited by footwasher; 08-19-2020, 12:05 PM.

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      • #63
        Please let me know where the videos are once they're posted. I'd like to take a look.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          Please let me know where the videos are once they're posted. I'd like to take a look.
          Sure. I sat down one night and recorded about 20 times before I found one that was kinda sorta acceptable.

          The challenge is that, when you are witnessing to somebody in person, you can get an immediate sense of "are they with me", or does that point need more explanation...

          Example... on the concept that "you have to get them lost before you can get them saved" - when you mention that there is none righteous, and we are all sinners, it would be great to see a nod, "yeah, I know *I'M* a sinner.... then you can move on...

          But I had somebody just this morning argue that "they don't need to admit they're lost".
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            That tends to make John 3:16 seem like "the magic verse" or something -- I think you're on better foundation by acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is key. I think I'm in the minority here sometimes when, for example, I don't think somebody has to affirm the virgin birth to be saved.
            My asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Esther View Post
              My asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation were and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.
              Yes, I meant to make it more clear that I'm inclined to your side of the argument, with the emphasis being on the Holy Spirit. Even a child can accept Christ as Savior, and John 3:16 is an excellent launching pad.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                My asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.
                The record shows that people were saved when they saw a great work being done. Strangely, when you make a spiritual claim, and it's a risky claim, with seemingly no worldly logic, and you are rescued by God, it CAN open the hearts of the listener. Apparently he or she has been thinking along the same lines, and it shocks him or her into realising it is a supernatural rescue. That's why we have to pick up our crosses every day. Of course in certain situations, with language and educational barriers, after you preach the Gospel, you may have to do an actual supernatural act, like praying for the sick. That's why you have so many reports of healing in third world countries. So much so that Hindu and Muslim governments ban missionary organisations from entering.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                  John 8:56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
                  In order for a person to have a “salvific belief” is to have the FAITH which Heb 11:6 described: “he that cometh to God must BELIEVE THAT HE IS.” The belief that we should possess is NOT A TRUST, but rather the “knowledge and understanding of the Godhead.” Thus is the reason why our salvation is knowing who God and Jesus are (John 17:3). The reason we are saved through the gospel is because the gospel is the revelation of Jesus, and that Jesus is the express image of God (2Cor4:3-6).

                  Did anybody among the prophets or the people of the old testament know Jesus?

                  NO, Sir! Because Jesus was only revealed through the gospel during the time of the apostles! Apostle Peter is witness as he said in 1Peter 1:20. None among the prophets of old knew about the truth of the Godhead. Jesus himself said so, and it was Christ himself who revealed the Father unto us (John 1:18). And so, 1John 5:20 says,

                  “And we know that the Son of God is come, and HATH GIVEN US UNDERSTANDING, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and ETERNAL LIFE.”

                  So the knowledge and understanding of the true Godhead is the Eternal Life itself!

                  It is not knowing God that you propose to mean of knowing as Adam knew Eve. I believe you are espousing an estrange doctrine with that.

                  Now, NONE can know God except God, or Christ, reveals it unto us (Luke 10:22, Mat 11:27). So the salvation, which is knowing God, TOTALLY rests in God. We are given the gospel to know God, yet to gain understanding was given to whom will be given (Matt 13:10-12). Thus is why Faith, which is the knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, is a gift! Our salvation is a gift. Since it is God himself who gives knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, he can save anyone from any generation, any tribe, even unto them who have not heard of the Gospel.

                  Your wrong view of salvation implies lack of knowledge of the truth about the Godhead.
                  Last edited by FarEastBird; 08-29-2020, 01:31 AM.
                  ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                  ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                  https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Esther View Post
                    My asking chiefsinner and fareastbird about John 3:16 was in response to what I read to be their rather complicated to and fro understanding and explanations and arguments re salvation and wanted to show a simple example of how a person can be saved by believing one verse. Not the magic verse of course but certainly a magic verse.
                    Please read my latest response to chiefsinner.
                    ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                    ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                    https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                      In order for a person to have a “salvific belief” is to have the FAITH which Heb 11:6 described: “he that cometh to God must BELIEVE THAT HE IS.”
                      This simply means people should believe God exists.

                      The belief that we should possess is NOT A TRUST, but rather the “knowledge and understanding of the Godhead.” Thus is the reason why our salvation is knowing who God and Jesus are (John 17:3). The reason we are saved through the gospel is because the gospel is the revelation of Jesus, and that Jesus is the express image of God (2Cor4:3-6).

                      Did anybody among the prophets or the people of the old testament know Jesus?

                      NO, Sir! Because Jesus was only revealed through the gospel during the time of the apostles! Apostle Peter is witness as he said in 1Peter 1:20. None among the prophets of old knew about the truth of the Godhead. Jesus himself said so, and it was Christ himself who revealed the Father unto us (John 1:18). And so, 1John 5:20 says,

                      “And we know that the Son of God is come, and HATH GIVEN US UNDERSTANDING, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and ETERNAL LIFE.”20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.
                      Abraham was put in dangerous situations and rescued. Israel was put in dangerous situations and rescued. This is called drinking from Christ, experiencing crucifixion and resurrection.

                      John 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

                      So the knowledge and understanding of the true Godhead is the Eternal Life itself!

                      It is not knowing God that you propose to mean of knowing as Adam knew Eve. I believe you are espousing an estrange doctrine with that.
                      Knowing, union with, God, is just the same as Joseph cleaving unto Mary, becoming one:

                      John 17:20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

                      Now, NONE can know God except God, or Christ, reveals it unto us (Luke 10:22, Mat 11:27). So the salvation, which is knowing God, TOTALLY rests in God. We are given the gospel to know God, yet to gain understanding was given to whom will be given (Matt 13:10-12). Thus is why Faith, which is the knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, is a gift! Our salvation is a gift. Since it is God himself who gives knowledge and understanding of the Godhead, he can save anyone from any generation, any tribe, even unto them who have not heard of the Gospel.

                      Your wrong view of salvation implies lack of knowledge of the truth about the Godhead.
                      See above.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                        This simply means people should believe God exists.
                        .
                        Knowing God “that he is” does NOT SIMPLY mean of his existence. To know the Godhead is to know his power, his righteousness, his wisdom, his love, his mercy, his will, etc.

                        You need to reexamine my responses and give a fair sense of understanding. Else you are not probably understanding my arguments at all.
                        ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                        ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                        https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Being really late to the party....

                          Jacob was chosen to fulfill covenant, not to eternal life. Esau was rejected for fulfilling covenant (in spite of being the oldest). Again, nothing to do with eternal life. God occasionally chooses individuals to perform certain roles, sometimes before they were born.

                          This is mentioned in Romans 9 as a parallel to the two groups within the nation of Israel, the remnant, like Jacob, chosen to fulfill covenant. The rest, like Esau, rejected for fulfilling covenant. This is why the question of whether God is just comes up.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                            Being really late to the party....

                            Jacob was chosen to fulfill covenant, not to eternal life. Esau was rejected for fulfilling covenant (in spite of being the oldest). Again, nothing to do with eternal life. God occasionally chooses individuals to perform certain roles, sometimes before they were born.

                            This is mentioned in Romans 9 as a parallel to the two groups within the nation of Israel, the remnant, like Jacob, chosen to fulfill covenant. The rest, like Esau, rejected for fulfilling covenant. This is why the question of whether God is just comes up.
                            Jacob IS Israel. The two nations in Rachel's womb were Israel and non-Israel, both descendants of Abraham, and technically, qualified to be recipients of the promise to Abraham. In Romans 9, metaphorically standing for sheep of the native flock, and sheep of another flock, Jew and Gentile. Abraham's descendants are identified by faith, so Abraham is the father of all those who have faith, whether Jew or Gentile, whether a Torah flock or another flock, a native branch or a wild branch, possessing the Covenant or not possessing it.

                            So nations, groups, corporate entities, not individuals, are chosen to perform certain roles, and the choice is arbitrary. Esau never served Jacob, but the nation he formed, Edom, WAS enslaved by Israel.

                            Before Israel had done anything good or bad, she was chosen, to be disobedient. Then why is she blamed? Who is Israel to ask why she was set up to disbelieve in Messiah? Doesn't the Potter have the right to make from SAME lump of clay whatever He chooses, to be a vessel of dishonor, even?

                            Second, the remnant are not Christians. They are faithful Jews, who believed God's teaching that all the Law had to be followed, both the minor points as well as the weightier issues, justice, mercy and loyalty. According to the Law, righteous. As opposed to the others, who used a technicality, that children of Abraham were identified by circumcision, dietary and purity laws, and were unconditionally destined to be given the blessing. Even today, there are remnants in Judaism. If it were not so, Israel would have gone the way of Sodom and Gomorrah, vanished.

                            The Law was given to be a guardian. It never ceased to be one, even after Jesus was sent. Israel disobeyed, as she was meant to, to allow the entry of the Gentiles, but she did not become extinct. God's word has not failed, her hardening is only temporary. When the right number of Gentiles are gathered, the hardening will be lifted.
                            Last edited by footwasher; 09-27-2020, 12:41 AM.

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