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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Innocent Children Suffer

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  • #31
    I claim that God planned for the cross, which is to say, the actions of men being predictable, God made sure that the outcomes would benefit his purpose.

    "The Lord works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster." (Prov. 16:4)
    The Lord ensures that everything will have an outcome that benefits his purpose - even the actions of the wicked in time of trouble.

    Surely you could have found passages more likely to support your argument - I could.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      I claim that God planned for the cross, which is to say, the actions of men being predictable, God made sure that the outcomes would benefit his purpose.
      What if Pilate had achieved his purpose? The actual path to the cross was unexpected.

      "Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 'But not during the festival,' they said, 'or there may be a riot among the people.' " (Mt. 26:3-5)

      The Lord ensures that everything will have an outcome that benefits his purpose - even the actions of the wicked in time of trouble.
      But that is not the text of the verse, "works out everything" implies active working in events.

      Surely you could have found passages more likely to support your argument - I could.
      I have a whole page of Scripture quotes! I didn't want to overwhelm the discussion.

      LA 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
        Here is a quote from The Problem of Pain on page 16:


        There is no suffering in heaven. Do the angels in heaven and the believers in heaven have free will? Obviously, life is not excluded from heaven.
        It depends what is meant by “free will”.

        Freedom to sin is not true freedom at all, but slavery. True freedom of will consists in perfect conformity to, & communion with, the Will of God. That second freedom is the freedom that the angels in Heaven, and all the Blessed in Heaven, enjoy.
        Their inability to desire evil is not a defect or a lack, but freedom from “false shadows of the good” (Dante, Purgatory 19). Attraction to evil & away from God is a sign of immaturity & weakness; those who are spiritually full-grown can’t be misled by such toys, because they are beyond being teased by such things.
        Libertarian free will is not free will at all, because it is centred on self instead of on Christ. LFW is just another form of slavery to sin.

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