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Innocent Children Suffer

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  • Innocent Children Suffer

    There is a non-Christian that I talked with recently and he said that he does not see a good reason for why God would allow innocent children to receive the consequences of living in a sin-cursed world. The examples he gave were the unborn being aborted, infants being born with a disease, and so on. How would you respond to this? Would it be correct to say that no one is innocent from God's perspective because everyone inherits a sinful nature and a guilty standing from Adam?

  • #2
    I would suggest looking into C.S Lewis's The Problem of Pain. I would also point out that God takes no pleasure in suffering or injustice.
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    • #3
      In the case of abortion, it isn't God causing the suffering, it's people.

      But not only do we have sin natures, but all of creation has fallen. Which is why there is disease, birth defects and all that. Again, our fault, not God's.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
        Would it be correct to say that no one is innocent from God's perspective because everyone inherits a sinful nature and a guilty standing from Adam?
        Yes, that is what I would say.

        "There is no one righteous, not even one;
        there is no one who understands;
        there is no one who seeks God.
        All have turned away,
        they have together become worthless;
        there is no one who does good,
        not even one. (Rom. 3:1012)

        But we must not picture God as being apart from suffering, he showed on the cross that he bears sin and suffering.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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        • #5
          For those who will spend eternity with God, this momentary suffering will fade away. There's a reason Paul compared suffering to childbirth. Temporary pain that turns into joy. Oh, and Adam and Eve doomed themselves and all of humanity to the school of hard knocks. Experiential knowledge of evil is not a fun thing. On a less serious note, the serpent tempting Eve reminds me of a drug psa. Where the drug dealer tells the kids that the authority figures are just keeping something fun away from them to be mean.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            For those who will spend eternity with God, this momentary suffering will fade away.
            And for many, this is the only thing getting them through the day...
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              In the case of abortion, it isn't God causing the suffering, it's people.

              But not only do we have sin natures, but all of creation has fallen. Which is why there is disease, birth defects and all that. Again, our fault, not God's.
              The person I've been talking to is asking why people receive the consequences of a fallen creation.
              Last edited by Hornet; 05-30-2019, 11:35 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                The person I've been talking to is asking why God allows people to cause others to suffer.
                Any freedom granted comes with the ability to abuse it.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  In the case of abortion, it isn't God causing the suffering, it's people.

                  But not only do we have sin natures, but all of creation has fallen. Which is why there is disease, birth defects and all that. Again, our fault, not God's.
                  Also, there's a spiritual adversary, an author of confusion, out there who kills, steals, and destroys, and would like nothing more than to distract us, and cause us to live with the concerns of this world heaped on our shoulders rather than see us in right relationship with our creator.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Yes, that is what I would say.

                    "There is no one righteous, not even one;
                    there is no one who understands;
                    there is no one who seeks God.
                    All have turned away,
                    they have together become worthless;
                    there is no one who does good,
                    not even one. (Rom. 3:1012)

                    But we must not picture God as being apart from suffering, he showed on the cross that he bears sin and suffering.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    According to Romans 3, people are not innocent before God. I agree. I think it is important to say that on the cross, Christ bore our sin and suffering.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                      The person I've been talking to is asking why people receive the consequences of a fallen creation.
                      It's the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. As to the mechanics of it, the bible doesn't tell us that.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                        I would suggest looking into C.S Lewis's The Problem of Pain. I would also point out that God takes no pleasure in suffering or injustice.
                        Here is a quote from The Problem of Pain on page 16:

                        In a game of chess you can make certain arbitrary concessions to your opponent, which stand to the ordinary rules of the game as miracles stand to the laws of
                        nature. You can deprive yourself of a castle, or allow the other man sometimes to take back a move made inadvertently. But if you conceded everything that at any moment happened to suit him if all his moves were revocable and if all your pieces disappeared whenever their position on the board was not to his liking then you could not have a game at all. So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself.
                        There is no suffering in heaven. Do the angels in heaven and the believers in heaven have free will? Obviously, life is not excluded from heaven.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Also, there's a spiritual adversary, an author of confusion, out there who kills, steals, and destroys, and would like nothing more than to distract us, and cause us to live with the concerns of this world heaped on our shoulders rather than see us in right relationship with our creator.
                          I agree!

                          To the OP:

                          Unlike many (most) here, I do not ascribe to the "blueprint world view" model of God's sovereignty (God controls everything including sinful acts), but rather, I ascribe to the "warfare world view". There is a war on that still rages in the heavenly realms and here on earth. humans and angelic beings (including demons) have free will. Human and demonic free will are responsible for all the ills of this present world. And, since God very rarely (if ever) blatantly overrides our free will, we and other free will agents determine what world we live in. Of course, those of us who are Christ Followers, have a responsibility and duty to fight these enemies of mankind and God with the authority we now have in Jesus Christ as Son's of the Most High God...and joint heirs with our Brother, Jesus Christ! Bad things happen because of evil people and evil beings.
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                            Here is a quote from The Problem of Pain on page 16:


                            There is no suffering in heaven. Do the angels in heaven and the believers in heaven have free will? Obviously, life is not excluded from heaven.
                            The angels* and the believers in heaven have already made their decision to follow God and not sin. I don't think they CAN sin any more. It's like saying, "OK God, I don't want to sin against you, so take away my ability to do so"

                            So in that one regard, I don't think we do have free will in heaven.

                            (*At one time the angels did have a choice to make and Satan and those that chose with him were cast out. So those that are left have chosen to follow God and never sin.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                              Here is a quote from The Problem of Pain on page 16:


                              There is no suffering in heaven. Do the angels in heaven and the believers in heaven have free will? Obviously, life is not excluded from heaven.
                              They have free will, and scripture tells us that some of the angels (in the Old Testament often labeled the "Sons of God" or "elohim" ), even there, used it to satisfy their own desires, and have/will reap the consequences of it. Those in Christ, however, are continually being perfected, are and will desire to become more Christ-like. The Orthodox call this synergistic relationship between our free will, and God's perfecting state Theosis, and I think they have the right idea about this.

                              I seem to remember Lewis saying something about this subject as well. Something to the effect of, once we taste heaven, once we find ourselves before the Holiest of Holies, those faithful servants who have made Jesus Lord won't even desire to sin anymore.

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