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Turning from sin and conversion

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    At least the NET Bible translates Rom 5:1 with "declared righteous", instead of "justified". I'm thinking the two terms are identical in meaning.
    I thank you, good sir.

    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    When Jesus was talking to the rich young ruler, His point was that one had to keep all of the commandments perfectly in order to achieve salvation by human merit. If you want to achieve salvation through human merit, then you would have to keep all of God's commandments perfectly. The problem is that we cannot keep all of God's commandments perfectly so receiving salvation cannot be based on our own efforts to please God or to obey God. The rich young ruler did not obey all of God's commandments. He could not keep the commandment that taught that one must love God with all of one's heart, mind, soul, strength, and so on.
    According to the rich young man, he had in fact been adherent to the law. He claimed to love God with all he had - "All these things have I kept from my youth up." - Jesus did not contradict him.

    According to Luke 18, the tax collector went home justified even though he did not do anything good. He realized that he was a sinner and he begged God for mercy.
    To the best of my knowledge, no-one here is arguing that people aren't justified by faith.

    Romans 4:1-4 teaches that Abraham was not justified by works. He was justified by faith. This passage also teaches that God justifies the ungodly. Even though a person is ungodly, God can still declare him righteous.
    To the best of my knowledge, no-one here is claiming that the outcome of faith is not righteousness.

    Galatians 2:16 teaches that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.
    Nice verse - especially when verse 17 is taken into account. A person might be led to believe that his own faith is a mere side issue in Paul's point - that he is indeed saved by the faithfulness of Christ.

    James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." This verse is not contradicting what I've been saying.
    If you are arguing that we are saved by faith, then James does indeed contradict that claim - so does Paul.

    James is using the word "justified" in the sense "shown to be righteous." In other words, James is saying that our good works give evidence of whether we are saved. Our good works do not cause us to be saved. Salvation is not received by our good works. We are not saved on the basis of our good works. Our good works are the evidence that we have been saved.
    I'm sure that James would not have said that we are saved by works and NOT by faith alone if he meant that good works do no more than demonstrate faith.

    A right standing before God is received as soon as we trust Christ for our salvation. When God saves us, He changes us so that we will do good works, but those good works are not the basis upon which we are declared righteous. Good works are the sign that we have been born again.
    True, the outcome of faith is indeed righteousness - but the outcome of faith (alone) is NOT salvation. Romans 10:10 makes that fact obvious.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      At least the NET Bible translates Rom 5:1 with "declared righteous", instead of "justified". I'm thinking the two terms are identical in meaning.
      Yeah, think of "justified" as "just as if I've never sinned".
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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      • Originally posted by Tabibito
        True, the outcome of faith is indeed righteousness - but the outcome of faith (alone) is NOT salvation.
        Assuming that the outcome of faith were always infused righteousness, as you claim, then there would be no such thing as faith alone. Assuming that (as in your system) there is no such thing as faith alone, then James and the Holy Spirit would both simply be speaking nonsensically when they talked about faith alone.

        Your interpretation makes God out to be a lunatic. Your interpretation is itself nonsensical, and should be disregarded.

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        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          If you are arguing that we are saved by faith, then James does indeed contradict that claim - so does Paul.
          Paul and James are using the "justified" in different senses. When Paul says "justified" he means "declared righteous" and when James says "justified" he means "shown to be righteous." According to Paul, we are declared righteous as soon as we put our faith in Jesus for our salvation. According to James, our works are an indication of whether we have been saved. Our works are not the means by which we receive salvation. They are a manifestation of whether we have been saved.

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          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            I believe that God's purpose is indeed that all repent, and that his word will accomplish its purpose (Isa. 55:11), that we may hope that God will grant repentance to everyone.


            Only I pronounce it TU-IP! No limited atonement...

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Irresistible grace without limited atonement would seem to logically require universalism.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Irresistible grace without limited atonement would seem to logically require universalism.
              I do indeed hope that God will choose everyone!

              "For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
              so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
              For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:30–32)

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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              • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                Do you [The Remonstrant] believe that there is a distinction between how a "declared righteous" status is received from God and the consequence of being born again? Is giving one's allegiance to God the means by which a "declared righteous" status is received or is it the consequence of being born again?
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Trying to find without success so far, a scriptural reference showing "declared righteous"[.]
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                At least the NET [New English Translation] Bible translates Rom 5:1 with "declared righteous", instead of "justified". I'm thinking the two terms are identical in meaning. [Emphases added.]
                Yes, you are correct. See also, for example, Romans 5.1 and 9 in the Christian Standard Bible (2017), Holman Christian Standard Bible (2009), Lexham English Bible (2012), and Young’s Literal Translation, where δικαιόω, dikaioó is rendered ‘declared righteous’ rather than ‘justified’.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                  I believe a better way to frame the encounter between the Lord Jesus and the rich, young ruler recorded in the Synoptic Gospels is not so much in terms of perfect law-keeping in order to gain entrance into God’s kingdom, but competing allegiances. To whom/what was the rich, young ruler committed? As demonstrated by the mournful departure of the young man from the Lord and his failure to obey Jesus’ counsel to part with his possessions, his loyalty rested not upon God, but mammon. The impossibility of a dual allegiance to God and wealth is explicitly declared by Christ: ‘“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon”’ (Mt 6.24, RSV; cf. Lk 16.13).
                  Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                  Do you believe that there is a distinction between how a "declared righteous" status is received from God and the consequence of being born again? Is giving one's allegiance to God the means by which a "declared righteous" status is received or is it the consequence of being born again?
                  Are you asking me something along the lines of ‘Does regeneration precede faith?’ If so, I would deny that it does.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                    Paul and James are using the "justified" in different senses. When Paul says "justified" he means "declared righteous" and when James says "justified" he means "shown to be righteous." According to Paul, we are declared righteous as soon as we put our faith in Jesus for our salvation. According to James, our works are an indication of whether we have been saved. Our works are not the means by which we receive salvation. They are a manifestation of whether we have been saved.

                    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                    It helps to know where the translation comes from:

                    "perfect" from the Koine Greek ετελειωθη - got completed (eteleiothe - aorist passive indicative third person singular) from teleioo - complete/finish/finalise

                    It helps to read all of the text before drawing conclusions about single sections of the text:

                    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

                    And even that is before the Koine Greek distinctions between faith = belief and faith = loyalty/dedication are taken into account.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • In context, it's obvious that all three of these carry the meaning "declared righteous."

                      Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

                      Luke 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

                      Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                        Is turning from sin an essential part of conversion? Some people think that turning from sin is not an essential component of conversion because they think that if turning from sin is a necessary component of conversion, then we are not justified by faith alone. Moreover, they say things like, "If turning from sin is a necessary part of conversion, then how many sins do you need to turn away from?"

                        There are others who believe that turning from sin accompanies faith at the moment of conversion, but it is not the means by which justification is received.

                        What do you think?
                        STM that turning from sin, to God, is what conversion is. The first view STM to graze antinomianism. And that conversion is both the act of a moment, and a life-long process; a state that the Christian is called to grow into.

                        STM that repentance (St Paul’s “repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret” in 2 Cor. 7.10)
                        = turning from sin to God;
                        and also = conversion. They are 3 names for the same thing, seeing it under different aspects.

                        As for the question “If turning from sin is a necessary part of conversion, then how many sins do you need to turn away from?" - Conversion, if it is conversion at all, is enmity to all sins whatsoever, of all types, all degrees, against all people, on all occasions. Conversion may at first be very feeble, wavering, weak, half-hearted, and lacking in resolution - it is God’s grace that transforms souls from half-converts, to more resolute converts, to converts in whom Christ is fully formed. The more fully and livingly and truly a soul is Christ’s, the less it is a friend even of its dearest and nearest sins. Perfect conversion from sin, to God, is an aspect of belonging unreservedly and totally to God. And it begins in the here and now.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                          Romans 10:10 says, "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." When a person believes in Christ with his heart, he is righteous. I take this to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us when we believe in Christ. Philippians chapter teaches that we do not have any righteousness of our own. We have the righteousness of Christ.

                          Confessing with one's mouth results in salvation.

                          Romans 10:10 does not use the exact words "faith alone" or "belief alone." Faith in Christ is accompanied by certain things.
                          Salvation “by faith alone” excludes salvation by good works - it does not exclude godly affections that God grants, but excludes all those things that man might suppose to be causes of salvation on his own part. Salvation is so totally God’s work, that it can come about only through the gift of God. And saving faith in Christ Whom God has sent is a gift of God, and is not something in any way founded on human initiative, desire, or effort.

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