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Turning from sin and conversion

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  • Turning from sin and conversion

    Is turning from sin an essential part of conversion? Some people think that turning from sin is not an essential component of conversion because they think that if turning from sin is a necessary component of conversion, then we are not justified by faith alone. Moreover, they say things like, "If turning from sin is a necessary part of conversion, then how many sins do you need to turn away from?"

    There are others who believe that turning from sin accompanies faith at the moment of conversion, but it is not the means by which justification is received.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Hornet; 04-12-2019, 10:47 PM.

  • #2
    Perhaps it would be possible to begin with the self-evident.
    Evaluate "we are justified by faith alone"
    Start with Romans 10:10
    What is the outcome of faith?
    Does this say "faith alone"?
    What is the outcome of confessing with the mouth?
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #3
      The title looks funny - one does not need to turn from sin AND conversion - sin is bad, conversion is good.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
        Is turning from sin an essential part of conversion?
        "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near!" was the message of John the Baptist (Mt. 3:1) and of Jesus (Mt. 4:17), and even more to the point, "repent and believe the good news!" was preached by Jesus (Mark 1:15). So yes, conversion does involve repentance as well as faith, though both of these are the gift of God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 18:27). So as Tabibito pointed out, salvation is not by faith alone. Rather, salvation is by faith apart from works of the law...

        Blessings,
        Lee
        Last edited by lee_merrill; 04-13-2019, 06:10 PM.
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Perhaps it would be possible to begin with the self-evident.
          Evaluate "we are justified by faith alone"
          Start with Romans 10:10
          What is the outcome of faith?
          Does this say "faith alone"?
          What is the outcome of confessing with the mouth?
          Romans 10:10 says, "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." When a person believes in Christ with his heart, he is righteous. I take this to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us when we believe in Christ. Philippians chapter teaches that we do not have any righteousness of our own. We have the righteousness of Christ.

          Confessing with one's mouth results in salvation.

          Romans 10:10 does not use the exact words "faith alone" or "belief alone." Faith in Christ is accompanied by certain things.
          Last edited by Hornet; 04-14-2019, 12:30 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near!" was the message of John the Baptist (Mt. 3:1) and of Jesus (Mt. 4:17), and even more to the point, "repent and believe the good news!" was preached by Jesus (Mark 1:15). So yes, conversion does involve repentance as well as faith, though both of these are the gift of God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 18:27). So as Tabibito pointed out, salvation is not by faith alone. Rather, salvation is by faith apart from works of the law...

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Does repentance mean to turn away from sin? Some people think that repentance means to change whom one is trusting for salvation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hornet View Post
              Does repentance mean to turn away from sin? Some people think that repentance means to change whom one is trusting for salvation.
              I think it means primarily to turn away from sin and self, and to turn to the Lord:


              "Seek the LORD while he may be found;
              call on him while he is near.
              Let the wicked forsake their ways
              and the unrighteous their thoughts.
              Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them,
              and to our God, for he will freely pardon." (Isa. 55:6–7)

              So yes, changing who we are trusting in for salvation would be involved with that.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                Romans 10:10 says, "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." When a person believes in Christ with his heart, he is righteous. I take this to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us when we believe in Christ. Philippians chapter teaches that we do not have any righteousness of our own. We have the righteousness of Christ.

                Confessing with one's mouth results in salvation.

                Romans 10:10 does not use the exact words "faith alone" or "belief alone." Faith in Christ is accompanied by certain things.
                Interesting: If you can provide chapter and verse, I'll have a look at the Philippians reference.
                Luther claimed that Rom 10:10 says we are saved by faith alone. (has to wonder what else he got wrong.)
                Is it possible to confess something that is false? Can the person for whom Christ is NOT lord confess that Christ is Lord?
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Interesting: If you can provide chapter and verse, I'll have a look at the Philippians reference.
                  Luther claimed that Rom 10:10 says we are saved by faith alone. (has to wonder what else he got wrong.)
                  Is it possible to confess something that is false? Can the person for whom Christ is NOT lord confess that Christ is Lord?

                  Philippians 3:7-11 says, "But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

                  Paul is saying that we do not have a righteousness of our own derived from the Law. We cannot get our own righteousness by keeping God's law. We have the righteousness that comes from God.

                  Is confessing with one's mouth a component of belief?

                  Is Luther saying that having faith in Christ the only characteristic of a Christian? Did he believe that there are other things that accompany faith?

                  Someone can claim that Jesus is their Lord when in fact He is not really their Lord.
                  Matthew 7:21-23 says, "'Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"
                  Last edited by Hornet; 04-14-2019, 11:55 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                    Philippians 3:7-11 says, "But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

                    Paul is saying that we do not have a righteousness of our own derived from the Law. We cannot get our own righteousness by keeping God's law. We have the righteousness that comes from God.
                    Ah yes ... not derived from law, but derived from faith. [perhaps - I'll do a bit more checking.]

                    [EDIT]

                    Checked.
                    The Koine (Byz Maj) texts support "derived" as valid. (or even "based on")
                    Last edited by tabibito; 04-15-2019, 12:16 AM.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think we need to know what repentance means.

                      Does it mean being sorry you have sinned and try hard not to do it again?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near!" was the message of John the Baptist (Mt. 3:1) and of Jesus (Mt. 4:17), and even more to the point, "repent and believe the good news!" was preached by Jesus (Mark 1:15). So yes, conversion does involve repentance as well as faith, though both of these are the gift of God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 18:27). So as Tabibito pointed out, salvation is not by faith alone. Rather, salvation is by faith apart from works of the law...

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        I nearly agree with you, but cannot agree with your assertion that repentance and faith are the gift of God. Your idea of salvation is necessarily restricted to those to whom God deigns to grant it; if solely bestowed by God, faith and repentance are logically merely window dressing. Preaching is utterly pointless if we are powerless to respond to it.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                          I think we need to know what repentance means.

                          Does it mean being sorry you have sinned and try hard not to do it again?
                          Actually, there are two meanings for repent.
                          1/ regret
                          2/ turn away/from/aside (that is: change course)

                          In Koine Greek they are two different, though closely related, words. The first is what Judas did after he had betrayed Christ. The second is used in the calls for people to repent.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                          • #14
                            I think it entails recognizing you are a sinner and trying to change. Nobody will succeed perfectly until we are glorified. Recognizing that we are sinners and trying to change and doing the best we can is not a condition of salvation, but a sign of it. If we make Jesus our Lord we will want to obey him. We will do as he asks because we love him and he is our Savior.

                            If someone merely pays lip service to Jesus and continues living in sin and not caring, then he is showing he is not changed. Not reborn, not saved. Jesus is not his Lord.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near!" was the message of John the Baptist (Mt. 3:1) and of Jesus (Mt. 4:17), and even more to the point, "repent and believe the good news!" was preached by Jesus (Mark 1:15). So yes, conversion does involve repentance as well as faith, though both of these are the gift of God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 18:27). So as Tabibito pointed out, salvation is not by faith alone. Rather, salvation is by faith apart from works of the law...

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              What exactly is the good news Jesus preached?

                              Comment

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