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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

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  • #91
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, and yes, and yes. And the jailer's household was saved when the jailer believed! Apparently their salvation was not ultimately up to them: "believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household." (Acts 16:31)
    Why would the jailer be told do something he had already done? [πιστευσον - pisteuson] - "do <believe> til completion!"
    Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
    Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household? Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
    Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?



    But the aspect of service is in the phrase "and appointed you". "I chose you [to be my disciples] and appointed you [for service]".

    Otherwise, we have "you did not choose me [for service]"! But this is not the sense of "you did not choose me".
    In which case, "you did not choose me" would be a non sequitur. However, nothing in Jesus' statement shows that there were two different aims of choosing - Judas was chosen in the same way and with the same aim as the others. That is shown by the record in Acts 1:17 "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry." The disciples were free to disallow being chosen, and ultimately, Judas disallowed it. More than anything else in the Bible, the record regarding Judas shows that God does not (ordinarily) choose to impose his will on a person. It can be said that where and when he chooses to exercise his prerogatives of sovereignty, what he chooses is inescapable. Where he does not, and almost always he does not, he allows free choice. Demonstration of how the process works can be found in Paul's letter to Philemon (1:8b-9a) "I have complete freedom to order you to do what is proper, 9 I prefer to make my appeal on the basis of love."


    Yet I am willing to hope that all will be saved, which would include Judas!
    Scant cause for hope there - Jesus declared that he had been lost.
    Last edited by tabibito; 04-05-2019, 07:30 PM.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #92
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      That is a superficial response. The Bible declares whom God chooses without any doubt.
      Yes, the Lord chooses those he loves:

      "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
      but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Dt 7:7–8)

      Be (or get) baptised is passive - it can't be done to an unwilling person. Dunking an unwilling person will only get the person wet.
      Yes, and "be saved" is passive, and the Lord is the one who makes us willing: "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt 29:4)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Why would the jailer be told do something he had already done? [πιστευσον - pisteuson] - "do <believe> til completion!"
        Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
        I think there must be some miscommunication here, the jailer was told to believe because he had not yet believed.

        Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household?
        Well, the command is singular.

        Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
        It would appear so! "Believe and you and your household will be saved".

        Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?
        Yes, it does.

        The disciples were free to disallow being chosen, and ultimately, Judas disallowed it. More than anything else in the Bible, the record regarding Judas shows that God does not (ordinarily) choose to impose his will on a person.
        Yet Judas was chosen for destruction:

        "Then Jesus replied, 'Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!' (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)" (Jn 6:70–71)

        Not "will become a devil"...

        Demonstration of how the process works can be found in Paul's letter to Philemon (1:8b-9a) "I have complete freedom to order you to do what is proper, 9 I prefer to make my appeal on the basis of love."
        Yes, but this is written to a believer, I believe that God's children can really choose, but that those apart from Christ cannot:

        "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. … So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.' " (Jn 8:34,36)

        Scant cause for hope there - Jesus declared that he had been lost.
        Maybe a glimmer of hope?

        When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
        Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
        Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
        Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:25–28)

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I think there must be some miscommunication here, the jailer was told to believe because he had not yet believed.


          Well, the command is singular.

          It would appear so! "Believe and you and your household will be saved".
          Rather than try to explain the grammar, I'll provide an example ... "Eat and you will be filled, you and your household." would also present the command in the singular. If someone told you that this meant, "If the one person directly addressed eats, the entire household will be filled," you would be justified in doubting that someone's sanity.

          (does believing on Christ involve believing what he said) Yes, it does.

          Yet Judas was chosen for destruction:

          "Then Jesus replied, 'Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!' (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)" (Jn 6:70–71)
          Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.

          Not "will become a devil"...
          Indeed - he wasn't chosen to become a devil, but in spite of the fact that he was one. It's almost like he was chosen despite being a sinner.


          Yes, but this is written to a believer, I believe that God's children can really choose, but that those apart from Christ cannot:
          That non-believers can choose, and even do, what is right is demonstrated. That they cannot always do the good that they choose is also demonstrated. If grace is extended to the unbeliever, it is not before the decision, but in making it possible to act on the decision.

          "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. … So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.' " (Jn 8:34,36)
          A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.
          Last edited by tabibito; 04-06-2019, 09:10 PM.
          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Yes, the Lord chooses those he loves:
            I see - you want me to chase the red dot.

            "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
            but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Dt 7:7–8)
            So then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else. Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.


            Yes, and "be saved" is passive, and the Lord is the one who makes us willing: "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt 29:4)
            Dt 29:4 doesn't address the issue of why God had not given those attributes: Ezekiel 3: 6-7 does.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • #96
              [QUOTE=tabibito;624869]Rather than try to explain the grammar, I'll provide an example ... "Eat and you will be filled, you and your household." would also present the command in the singular. If someone told you that this meant, "If the one person directly addressed eats, the entire household will be filled," you would be justified in doubting that someone's sanity.
              Right, so "eat" should be taken as a plural imperative, you are using the ambiguity of English to make your point.

              Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.
              No, Jesus chose him knowing what he would do:

              "Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen." (Jn 13:17–18)

              That non-believers can choose, and even do, what is right is demonstrated.
              Demonstrated, how? Scripture says the one who sins is a slave to sin, and slavery implies a lack of freedom.

              If grace is extended to the unbeliever, it is not before the decision, but in making it possible to act on the decision.
              But it's "by grace [they] had believed" (Acts 18:27), not "by grace were enabled to believe."

              A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.
              But I'm not sure how my response says this.

              "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures." (Titus 3:3)

              So unbelievers are enslaved by their desires, and by the devil, to do his will (2 Tim. 2:26).

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                So then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else.
                It certainly illustrates the freedom of God in choosing.

                Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.
                "Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.' "

                So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help? Why do we need a Savior, then?

                "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)

                Dt 29:4 doesn't address the issue of why God had not given those attributes: Ezekiel 3: 6-7 does.
                "You are not being sent to a people of obscure speech and strange language, but to the people of Israel—not to many peoples of obscure speech and strange language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely if I had sent you to them, they would have listened to you. But the people of Israel are not willing to listen to you because they are not willing to listen to me, for all the Israelites are hardened and obstinate." (Eze. 3:5-7)

                But being hardened is from the Lord:

                "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
                and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa.63:17)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  It certainly illustrates the freedom of God in choosing.
                  "Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.' "
                  So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help?
                  Obviously.
                  Why do we need a Savior, then?
                  It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin. Have I not addressed this point earlier in the thread?
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Why do good works not save a person?
                  Someone commits murder. Thereafter, that person spent the past 20 years doing only good works. Then he is identified as the perpetrator of that murder 20 years earlier, he is tried and convicted. Do his good works save him? Not so, but a pardon (grace) will. BUT - just how much effect will that pardon have if the person then goes on to commit murder again - can he say "but I have been pardoned"?
                  "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)
                  Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
                  The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
                  But being hardened is from the Lord:
                  More chasing of the red dot.
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Being hardened can be from the Lord - usually when people have rejected opportunity often enough to become an annoyance. You present arguments, that show the Lord does harden a person, which also show that they weren't hardened from the outset. Comment by Chrawnus earlier in this thread is relevant.
                  Pharaoh would not let them go. Strike one.
                  (miracle 1) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 2.
                  (Miracle 2) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 3
                  (Miracle 3) The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
                  The Biblical record itself shows that the Lord didn’t harden pharaoh’s heart on the first two occasions.
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                    There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

                    If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
                    If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
                    If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

                    Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
                    Clever, but not convincing.

                    God ordains all things, including pre-eminent sins like the Crucifixion. But in no sense is God the Author of evil. Man is always totally answerable to God for all the use he makes of the graces God gives him - that God’s Providence rules all things and cannot be frustrated, does not in the least excuse us from whatever blame is due us for our sins.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                      Clever, but not convincing.

                      God ordains all things, including pre-eminent sins like the Crucifixion. But in no sense is God the Author of evil. Man is always totally answerable to God for all the use he makes of the graces God gives him - that God’s Providence rules all things and cannot be frustrated, does not in the least excuse us from whatever blame is due us for our sins.
                      I'm not convinced that this example is accurate. Outcomes from the Crucifixion might be ordained without the crucifixion itself being ordained: a matter of all things being made to work together for the good; which is to say, I am not convinced that God would ordain evil.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Obviously.
                        "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

                        'There is no one righteous, not even one;
                        there is no one who understands;
                        there is no one who seeks God.
                        All have turned away,
                        they have together become worthless;
                        there is no one who does good,
                        not even one.' " (Rom. 3:9–12)

                        It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin.
                        "... and everything that does not come from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

                        Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
                        "The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous." (1 Jn. 3:7)

                        The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
                        "The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
                        but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." (Pr. 12:10)

                        Pharaoh would not let them go. Strike one.
                        (miracle 1) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 2.
                        (Miracle 2) Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let them go. Strike 3
                        (Miracle 3) The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
                        The Biblical record itself shows that the Lord didn’t harden pharaoh’s heart on the first two occasions.
                        After the staffs became snakes: "Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:13)
                        After the Nile became blood: "Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 7:22)
                        After the frogs: "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 8:15)

                        So only after the third miracle do we see any clear indication that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And what is it that the Lord said?

                        "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
                        But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 7:2–3)

                        So "as the Lord had said" refers to "I will harden Pharaoh's heart"! So even when Pharaoh hardens his heart, "as the Lord had said" shows us that God is behind this, hardening Pharaoh's heart.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                          Clever, but not convincing.

                          God ordains all things, including pre-eminent sins like the Crucifixion. But in no sense is God the Author of evil. Man is always totally answerable to God for all the use he makes of the graces God gives him - that God’s Providence rules all things and cannot be frustrated, does not in the least excuse us from whatever blame is due us for our sins.
                          Can God's plan to allow people to do evil be described as ordaining something?

                          If God ordained that people would crucify Jesus, how did God go about carrying out what He ordained? Did He allow them to act according to their desires and not allow anything to stop them?
                          Last edited by Hornet; 04-09-2019, 10:56 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            "For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:
                            ~~
                            Lee
                            Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Right now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
                              All right, best wishes with your studies...
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                                There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

                                If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
                                If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
                                If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

                                Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
                                God ordains many things that are contrary to His Will. To ordain X, is to give X a place in the Divine Purpose - it is not an endorsement of it. Atrocities like the Shoah, with all the misery bound up with it, are given a place in God’s Purpose, so they are said to be ordained by Him. Such things as the Shoah are atrocious, wicked, sinful; but they are not meaningless. No evil, no matter how great, is meaningless. The Power of God is so unboundedly great, that it is within His Power to turn even the most enormous crimes and evils into means by which He acts.

                                God does not, as it were, simply allow these evils - not if by that one means that God folds His hands, sits back, and does nothing. God, Who is always working, works not only in and through good things, but in and through evil things as well. God works even in, and through, the worst that human or demonic sin can do, to do all His Holy and Glorious Will despite all that the wickedness of perverse creatures can devise. Even over all sin, His Power is complete. God cannot be shut out of His own creation, that exists by His Word, His Will, His favour alone. Not even the malice and perversity of sin and sinners can be outside God’s Kingship. The malice and perversity of sin serve His Will despite themselves - the hatred of Joseph’s brothers made him a slave, but only so that he might become second only to Pharaoh, and use his power to save his brothers from famine. The evil will is that of the evildoer, not of God - the Holy & Righteous Purpose that works through the evildoer’s will, is God’s Purpose.

                                The Book of Revelation shows this: despite the most titanic efforts of the devil and the 666 and the False Prophet, the persecuting 666 is a fake Messiah who worships the devil, and all their power is nothing compared to the universal & everlasting dominion of the Lamb, but is controlled by the Lamb and by His Father. Rev.11.15-19 occurs just a little before the “great sign” of the Great Red Dragon satan, as though to assure the hearers of the book that the power of satan and his servants is entirely under, and “within”, the control of God and the Lamb.

                                God is Lord and Master over all circumstances - all, without exception in any way, are in all respects subject to His Providence. Nothing baffles or thwarts God, for whatever comes about, can do so only because He has a purpose to work out through it. His purpose cannot be derailed, for the Wisdom of God encompasses all creatures, and all their potentialities, and sees them all in every respect. Nothing in creation, nor all creation together, can have any secrets from God, for God is the Creator of all things that have been, are, or shall be.

                                That God gives a place in His Providence to great evils, in no way means that God takes pleasure in them - for God is not in any sense the Author of evil. God is Love, in the fullest, truest, most adequate and infinite sense. The Bible is insistent that God is opposed to all sin - the Bible is a vast mass of testimonies, both to God’s implacable displeasure at sin in all its forms, and to God’s Holiness and Righteousness. God’s Attributes, His Judgements, His Warnings, Rebukes, Covenants, Promises, Mighty Acts, all that He does, purposes, reveals, witness against sin and evil; and in favour of God’s Goodness, Compassion, Faithfulness, Covenantal Love, Power, Glory, Dominion, Wisdom, Strength, Zeal for His Covenant, Patience, Holiness, Righteousness - qualities never mentioned by those who speak ill of God as revealed in the Bible.

                                Such a God cannot be the Author of evil, nor take pleasure in it. And Jesus Christ the Lord is the canonical “Self-portrait” of God. Jesus Christ is the definitive and totally, Divinely, adequate “Image” of God. What is God really like ? He is like Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ was on Earth, He “went around doing good”. This shows that God was doing good through Him, and, that God is always doing good. Not evil - good.

                                Everything revealed about God, in Scripture and in Christ, destroys the ugly caricature of God as an omnipotent, omni-malevolent, Monster. The real clincher, is what God does on the Cross, and after. The hideous phantom that haunts so many people’s ideas about God, could not, in an infinite number of eternities (were such things possible) “become a curse for us”. The Real God, God as He is in Christ, has done exactly that. And, far more than that. God is *not* evil - God is Infinitely Good.

                                1 Cor.10.13 still stands. And God ordains everything that comes to pass:

                                3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,e to the praise of his glory.”

                                https://biblehub.com/esv/ephesians/1.htm

                                The scope of the passage is all-inclusive. If God’s Love, Grace, Wisdom, did not rule and govern “all things”, the passage would be a lie. But if God has total control over “all things”, and is Good, Holy, and Righteous, then it can be truly said that nothing, not even evil, comes about “outside” His ordering, His ordination. God “chose us in” Christ, before the Big Bang, before whatever made it possible, before the creation, “when” nothing was but God Himself. Not because those chosen are good, but because God is Good.

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