Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

[lee_merrill]

"God grants them repentance" does not mean "God forces them to repent" - it acknowledges that God might withhold the opportunity to repent (whether temporarily or permanently).

No, that is not the sense of "grants repentance," this is a positive statement; though its converse is implied, that is not the statement being made.

This verse does NOT contradict all the other verses which show the requirement for a person to repent (active verb - the person himself does it).

Well, again, I believe God's command is effective, and is not merely an offer.

This verse sits alongside those other verses, and is part of the broader picture of God's sovereignty. Most evident in this matter, is God's dealing with the pharaoh of Moses time, where pharaoh hardens his own heart often enough for God (to say "enough" and withhold the opportunity for the pharaoh to repent and) to harden the pharaoh's heart.

That contradicts God's purpose in raising Pharaoh up to display his power (Rom. 9:17).

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' " (Rom. 9:18-19)

The answer to this question is "no one!". No mention is made of Pharaoh hardening his heart, "He hardens whom He desires."

Will means "desire", it doesn't mean "decision."

But "decision" is in the next phrase in Isa. 55:11:

" So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:11)

The inference is that the LORD will have mercy on ANY that repent.

Certainly, and the question then becomes, does repentance have a cause?

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

It is readily apparent that there is no performative utterance here - even without the record of verse 41...

So are you saying when all the people do not repent, that

1) God's purpose here is not that the people repent

or

2) God's word does not accomplish its purpose.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Yes, you can! You don't have to love the individuals to love the group.

"I love mankind, it's people I can't stand!" (Linus van Pelt, "Peanuts") But this is impossible, to love a group means to love the people.

... so the individual mandate and the command to the group are bound together.

Because of the Honor/Shame culture of the time and place. Individuals brought shame on the group by unrighteous behavior, even though individually they were clean before God if their faith is in Christ. It's a theme Paul proclaims throughout his epistles.

Well, yes, but what I'm after is that Paul's commands to the church are also directed towards the individuals.

can you link to this commentary please?

Sorry, it's only for sale, if you have the Logos bible program it's available for $50.

And how could Paul's readers know that all things work together for good by examining past history? Knowing this involves some measure of faith, that God will work out everything that happens to his saints, for good.

Many (if not most) of Paul's readers are Jewish. They know from history because they've been taught it since birth. They would also have passed along to the gentile believers this history.

Yes, but knowing all things work out for good implies knowing that the future will be good, too! And this is by faith, and not just past experience.

Source: Adam Clarke

It is therefore reasonable to suppose that the apostle refers to what God had already done among the Jews and Gentiles: though he may also speak of the things that were not as though they were.

© Copyright Original Source

But Jews and Gentiles are not yet glorified, this glorification is in the future, so the aorist must be denoting certainty, not past tense.

Source: Adam Clarke

Here it seems to mean that those whom God had called into a state of justification he had rendered illustrious by innumerable gifts, graces, and privileges, in the same manner as he had done to the Israelites of old.

© Copyright Original Source

"... to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." (Ro 2:7)
"... and we exult in hope of the glory of God." (Ro 5:2)
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us." (Ro 8:18)

So glorification is not present, but future, for all the saints, even saints in heaven.

"There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power..." (1 Cor. 15:40–43)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

I would imagine that both you and I would agree that (1) the biblical authors describe unbelievers as being in a state of spiritual slavery, darkness, blindness, and, yes, even deadness; and (2) regeneration is the act of God. An unbeliever is consequently unable to, of his/her own will or desire, make him-/herself born anew.

Agreed.

The glad tidings of salvation in Jesus Christ is presented in scripture as requiring the human response of repentance and faith (baptism and confession of Christ may also be added). In other words, the recipients of the good news are called to do certain things in order to become beneficiaries of salvation.

"What must I do to be saved?" asked the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your house!" replied Paul. Note that the command is singular, and the result is plural! God in his sovereignty saved all these people, though they certainly had to believe as well (v. 34), their salvation was in a sense due to the jailer's faith, under God's sovereignty.

Faith, the instrumental cause of salvation, is not wholly passive, but both passive and active; neither aspect of faith (assent and trust) may be safely denied. Individuals both pursue Christ and rest in him and his promises.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you", said Jesus to his disciples (Jn. 15:16), though they did actively believe in him.

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God..." (2 Cor. 17-18)

Blessings,
Lee

[tabibito]

So are you saying when all the people do not repent, that

1) God's purpose here is not that the people repent

or

2) God's word does not accomplish its purpose.

3/ God's word accomplishes the purpose for which it is designed. Which is to grant opportunity to any who accept it.

The inference is that the LORD will have mercy on ANY that repent.

Certainly, and the question then becomes, does repentance have a cause?

Direct cause, or invoked cause? The second would be no more than a response on the part of the person to an exhortation (if that much)?

[tabibito]

Rom 9:18 Therefore, God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

To whom does God choose to extend mercy?

[lee_merrill]

3/ God's word accomplishes the purpose for which it is designed. Which is to grant opportunity to any who accept it.

But the statement is not an offer of an opportunity, the statement is a command: "Repent and live!" (Eze. 18:32) Now the purpose of a command is that it be obeyed, so the purpose here is that people repent and live.

Direct cause, or invoked cause? The second would be no more than a response on the part of the person to an exhortation (if that much)?

A direct cause:

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." (Acts 5:31)

Just as granting forgiveness is an act done by God, so repentance is also an act that is granted by God.

Blessings,
Lee

[Littlejoe]

"I love mankind, it's people I can't stand!" (Linus van Pelt, "Peanuts") But this is impossible, to love a group means to love the people.

No, it's not. Your inability to comprehend it doesn't make it impossible.

Well, yes, but what I'm after is that Paul's commands to the church are also directed towards the individuals.

Well, what I'm after is for you to understand that the commands are to the church for the sake of the church, not to the individual for the sake of the individual.

Sorry, it's only for sale, if you have the Logos bible program it's available for $50.

It's bad form to quote things behind paywalls or otherwise unavailable for those you are discussing with to verify or read for themselves without spending money. It's also required that you should give a link to whatever you are quoting for proper documentation in regards to copy-write purposes. So, please refrain from doing these things. (You're using the cite command but not giving the credit by citing the actual source where you got it.) Thanks in advance!

Yes, but knowing all things work out for good implies knowing that the future will be good, too! And this is by faith, and not just past experience.

The faith comes BECAUSE of the history, not in spite of it...and not from special revelation.

Source: Adam Clarke

It is therefore reasonable to suppose that the apostle refers to what God had already done among the Jews and Gentiles: though he may also speak of the things that were not as though they were.

© Copyright Original Source

But Jews and Gentiles are not yet glorified, this glorification is in the future, so the aorist must be denoting certainty, not past tense.

Source: Adam Clarke

Here it seems to mean that those whom God had called into a state of justification he had rendered illustrious by innumerable gifts, graces, and privileges, in the same manner as he had done to the Israelites of old.

© Copyright Original Source

"... to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." (Ro 2:7)
"... and we exult in hope of the glory of God." (Ro 5:2)
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us." (Ro 8:18)

So glorification is not present, but future, for all the saints, even saints in heaven.

"There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power..." (1 Cor. 15:40–43)

Blessings,
Lee

Most Calvinist/Reformed believers view God in the classical sense...that God exists above and outside of time...and as such, everything being to Him (God) is in the everpresent "now" state. From that view, then the Glorification has indeed already happened from God's standpoint, we just haven't gotten there yet. I guess you're disagreeing with Adam Clarkes commentary? You asked for a commentary that showed what I was saying, I provided it. But, all commentaries are just someone's opinion isn't it? I don't usually resort to dualing commentaries/appeals to authority.

[tabibito]

But the statement is not an offer of an opportunity, the statement is a command: "Repent and live!" (Eze. 18:32) Now the purpose of a command is that it be obeyed, so the purpose here is that people repent and live.


A direct cause:

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." (Acts 5:31)

Just as granting forgiveness is an act done by God, so repentance is also an act that is granted by God.

The command (issued to all of Israel) given in Ezekiel 18:32 shows no evidence of performative utterance, nothing irresistible. Israel, holus bolus, did not repent

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

set free.jpg



Rom 9:18 Therefore, God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

To whom does God choose to extend mercy?

Acts 2:40 with many other words also, he was testifying and urging (them), saying, "be saved from this corrupt generation!" (TBM)

It is readily apparent that there is no performative utterance here - even without the record of verse 41

[The Remonstrant]

The glad tidings of salvation in Jesus Christ is presented in scripture as requiring the human response of repentance and faith (baptism and confession of Christ may also be added). In other words, the recipients of the good news are called to do certain things in order to become beneficiaries of salvation.

"What must I do to be saved?" asked the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your house!" replied Paul. Note that the command is singular, and the result is plural! God in his sovereignty saved all these people, though they certainly had to believe as well (v. 34)[.] [T]heir salvation was in a sense due to the jailer's faith, under God's sovereignty.

Is the human response itself determined by God? Does God proffer his grace in such a manner that it is wholly impossible for the elect to respond negatively and the non-elect to respond positively to the proclamation of the good news? I do not see anywhere in the text you cited above the idea that the jailer of Philippi received an inward, irresistible/effectual call that guaranteed a positive response on his part to the good news shared with him by Paul and Silas.

Faith, the instrumental cause of salvation, is not wholly passive, but both passive and active; neither aspect of faith (assent and trust) may be safely denied. Individuals both pursue Christ and rest in him and his promises.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you[,]" said Jesus to his disciples (Jn. 15:16), though they did actively believe in him.

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God[,] …" (2 Cor. [5]:17-18[a, NASB])[.]

Blessings,
Lee

The full quotation of John 15.6 reads as follows: ‘“You did not chose Me, but I chose you and appointed you, that you should go and you should bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, so that whatever you might ask the Father in My name, He may give you”’ (BLB*).

Whilst John 15.6 may be brought forth as evidence that Jesus unconditionally elected his apostles to service (i.e. vocational election), this choosing is distinct from election to salvation (i.e. salvational election). One of the Twelve whom Jesus had been given to him by the Father was lost (see Jn 17.12). The implication is that it is possible to share in the privilege of being called by and used of God to a specific task or service in redemptive history, yet fail to obtain (or retain) the blessing of salvation.



* Berean Literal Bible (2016). For those who might be interested to explore this English Bible translation, see the following link: <https://literalbible.com>.

[tabibito]

* Berean Literal Bible (2016). For those who might be interested to explore this English Bible translation, see the following link: <https://literalbible.com>.

Grabbed

[lee_merrill]

Rom 9:18 Therefore, God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

To whom does God choose to extend mercy?

To whomever he chooses! The emphasis here is on God's freedom to choose. "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Rom. 9:16)

Acts 2:40 with many other words also, he was testifying and urging (them), saying, "be saved from this corrupt generation!" (TBM)

It is readily apparent that there is no performative utterance here - even without the record of verse 41.

But "be saved" is passive! Showing again that God is at work here primarily, not man.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Well, what I'm after is for you to understand that the commands are to the church for the sake of the church, not to the individual for the sake of the individual.

So I may disregard Paul's commands?

It's bad form to quote things behind paywalls or otherwise unavailable for those you are discussing with to verify or read for themselves without spending money. It's also required that you should give a link to whatever you are quoting for proper documentation in regards to copy-write purposes.

But I'm allowed to quote from books I own, am I not? John Reese did this extensively in the Biblical Languages forum. And copyright restrictions allow "fair use", which does not require a link. I even posted a thread reviewing a book, in which I would be expected to quote, well, from the book.

The faith comes BECAUSE of the history, not in spite of it...and not from special revelation.

That's part of why we believe that all works for good for those who love God. But that's not the whole reason, we believe, because God is good and all-powerful that all will work out for good in the future.

Most Calvinist/Reformed believers view God in the classical sense...that God exists above and outside of time...and as such, everything being to Him (God) is in the everpresent "now" state. From that view, then the Glorification has indeed already happened from God's standpoint, we just haven't gotten there yet.

Agreed!

I guess you're disagreeing with Adam Clarkes commentary? You asked for a commentary that showed what I was saying, I provided it. But, all commentaries are just someone's opinion isn't it? I don't usually resort to dualing commentaries/appeals to authority.

Well, the commentaries are from those who have studied Scripture and read widely, for the most part, for their whole lives. And yes, I disagree with Adam Clarke, he is going against the consensus of Christian thought here, glorification for the believer is at Christ's return, in the future, even for believers in heaven.

"There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power..." (1 Cor. 15:40–43)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Is the human response itself determined by God? Does God proffer his grace in such a manner that it is wholly impossible for the elect to respond negatively and the non-elect to respond positively to the proclamation of the good news? I do not see anywhere in the text you cited above the idea that the jailer of Philippi received an inward, irresistible/effectual call that guaranteed a positive response on his part to the good news shared with him by Paul and Silas.

Yes, and yes, and yes. And the jailer's household was saved when the jailer believed! Apparently their salvation was not ultimately up to them: "believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household." (Acts 16:31)

The full quotation of John 15.6 reads as follows: ‘“You did not chose Me, but I chose you and appointed you, that you should go and you should bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, so that whatever you might ask the Father in My name, He may give you”’ (BLB*).

Whilst John 15.6 may be brought forth as evidence that Jesus unconditionally elected his apostles to service (i.e. vocational election), this choosing is distinct from election to salvation (i.e. salvational election).

But the aspect of service is in the phrase "and appointed you". "I chose you [to be my disciples] and appointed you [for service]".

Otherwise, we have "you did not choose me [for service]"! But this is not the sense of "you did not choose me".

One of the Twelve whom Jesus had been given to him by the Father was lost (see Jn 17.12). The implication is that it is possible to share in the privilege of being called by and used of God to a specific task or service in redemptive history, yet fail to obtain (or retain) the blessing of salvation.

Yet I am willing to hope that all will be saved, which would include Judas!

Blessings,
Lee

[tabibito]

To whomever he chooses! The emphasis here is on God's freedom to choose. "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Rom. 9:16)

That is a superficial response. The Bible declares whom God chooses without any doubt.

But "be saved" is passive! Showing again that God is at work here primarily, not man.

Be (or get) baptised is passive - it can't be done to an unwilling person. Dunking an unwilling person will only get the person wet.