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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    There is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?

    If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
    If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
    If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.

    Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    As a non-Calvinist, I would deny that God foreordains all things. I would say that God foreordains some things and allows others. All falls within or under the scope of divine governance. However, I would deny that, in order to be considered truly sovereign, God must have an exhaustive, eternal decree that disallows any form of non-deterministic, contra-causal creaturely freedom.
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Or maybe there is real freedom only within the will of God! Real choices to be made by people, yet God remains truly sovereign, and in complete control.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The preceptive will of God is that our allegiance be unto him and his Son, Jesus Christ. A significant point of the Arminian–Calvinist divide concerns the question of whether God has unconditionally determined which individuals will submit to the yoke of Christ (unconditional salvational election) and which individuals will not (unconditional reprobation).

    A person freely submitting to become a slave of Christ implies that s/he genuinely could have chosen otherwise and remained a slave of sin.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      That foreknowledge is about relationship, not about knowing a person's future choices.
      That is what I said.


      Yes, there are verses that indicate we must remain, and the way Calvinists have interpreted this is that those who are chosen will indeed remain:
      Which the verses themselves deny.

      "This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: 'I have not lost one of those you gave me.' " (Jn 18:9)
      Oddly, Jesus also claimed to have lost one of them. Not to mention that "have not" doesn't indicate "will not."

      "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pe 1:10–11)
      Interesting: that (among many other verses) shows that something needs be done by the believer.

      So part of not stumbling means being sure of our calling and election.
      "Make every effort" says nothing of the sort.
      σπουδασατε (aorist active, imperative) do exertion until satisfactory completion. (It is a command)
      ποιεισθαι (present, mid, infinitive) to get < > undertaken ... <selection>.
      ποιουντες (present, active, participle) (the one) doing

      σπουδασατε βεβαιαν υμων την κλησιν και εκλογην ποιεισθαι ταυτα γαρ ποιουντες ου μη πταισητε ποτε
      Exert - steadfast - your - to the - calling - and - selection, for the one doing these things will by no means fail.

      It should be immediately apparent that the outcome for the one who does not do these things won't be the same.


      But I agree that there are verses that warn of falling away! Perhaps the best counsel is to teach all the verses as they stand, and the Lord will do his work.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Perhaps the best counsel would be - "don't treat exegesis as some sort of irrelevant philosophical exercise"
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
        A person freely submitting to become a slave of Christ implies that s/he genuinely could have chosen otherwise and remained a slave of sin.
        But slaves cannot choose to free themselves! Nor can blind people open their eyes, nor dead people raise themselves, nor a person choose to be born, all the metaphors of salvation are passive on the part of the person.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Oddly, Jesus also claimed to have lost one of them. Not to mention that "have not" doesn't indicate "will not."
          Well, I think Judas was not chosen for salvation, "the son of perdition" here:

          “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." (Jn 17:12)

          And Jesus kept them, they didn't keep themselves.

          "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
          to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." (Jude 24–25)

          Interesting: that (among many other verses) shows that something needs be done by the believer.
          To ensure your calling and election! Not to hold onto your salvation.

          It should be immediately apparent that the outcome for the one who does not do these things won't be the same.
          Yes, they won't be sure of their calling and election, thus they may not be called.

          Perhaps the best counsel would be - "don't treat exegesis as some sort of irrelevant philosophical exercise"
          Which I don't intend to do...

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But slaves cannot choose to free themselves! Nor can blind people open their eyes, nor dead people raise themselves, nor a person choose to be born, all the metaphors of salvation are passive on the part of the person.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            No, but slaves can choose to take the offer of freedom. Salvation is not passive on our part - true! there is nothing we can do to earn it - but rather everywhere we are commanded to repent, believe, or confess to be saved.
            We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              all the metaphors of salvation are passive on the part of the person.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "He got rescued when he took the rope that was lowered to him." "Rescued" is passive, but "took" is active - and rescue could not have happened without his active participation.

              Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

              2 Thess 13:2b God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

              Getting saved is passive right enough - but the exegete notes the need to do something (believe) to make getting saved possible.

              Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas boldly declared, “We had to speak God’s word to you first, but since you reject it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we are now going to turn to the gentiles.

              John 1:12 But to all who received him – to those who believe in his name – he gave the authority to become God’s children.

              The outcomes of doing something (the active "accept" or "reject") are contrasted.

              Acts 2:37b They spoke to Peter and the other apostles ... "what are we to do" ... 38 Peter was asserting "Repent! and get baptised!" ... 40 He was testifying and summoning; saying, "Get saved from this crooked generation!"

              Yet again, something needs to be done (repent: active) ... and of course, in the ordinary course, adults don't get baptised without first presenting themselves for baptism.

              And then we have Romans 10:10 - For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.
              Answering from the text, from what you see written in front of you -
              1 What is the outcome of belief?
              2 What is the outcome of confession?


              Confession is active.


              And what do you say of a theologian who claims that Romans 10:10 says the outcome of belief is salvation?
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                No, but slaves can choose to take the offer of freedom. Salvation is not passive on our part - true! there is nothing we can do to earn it - but rather everywhere we are commanded to repent, believe, or confess to be saved.
                And the Calvinists would say the command is effective! That is, the command itself brings about the desired result, and we believe.

                "A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

                Originally posted by tabibito
                "He got rescued when he took the rope that was lowered to him." "Rescued" is passive, but "took" is active - and rescue could not have happened without his active participation.
                But this analogy is not Scriptural, the Scriptural analogy would be "he got rescued when he was born", "he got rescued when his eyes were opened", "... when he was raised from the dead".

                Originally posted by tabibito
                And what do you say of a theologian who claims that Romans 10:10 says the outcome of belief is salvation?
                That God is the source of our belief!

                "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
                not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph 2:8–9)

                And as I have seen, the conclusion here is that "salvation by grace through faith" is the gift of God, and is not of ourselves.

                Source: Evangelical Exegetical Commentary

                In Greek, events as a whole are treated as neuter singular things with neuter articles (e.g., τὸ πιστεύειν, to pisteuein, “believing”), neuter relative pronouns (e.g., Eph. 5:5), or neuter demonstrative pronouns, as in v. 8b (also, for example: 6:1; 1 Cor 6:6, 8; Phil 1:22, 28; Col 3:20; 1 Thess 5:18; 1 Tim 2:1–3). Hence, the antecedent of τοῦτο (touto) is the whole event: "being saved by grace through faith."

                © Copyright Original Source



                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  And the Calvinists would say the command is effective! That is, the command itself brings about the desired result, and we believe.

                  "A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)


                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  I think you will search the Scripture in vain to find two separate commands or gospels - an effective gospel for the elect and an ineffective gospel for the reprobate. The same command goes out to all, and all can decide to obey the command to repent or to continue to live in rebellion to his messiah.

                  Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
                  We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    And the Calvinists would say the command is effective! That is, the command itself brings about the desired result, and we believe.
                    (Oh how I wish this subject had been mentioned a week earlier). "The command is effective" - it that were so, no-one would be able to refuse the gospel. Contrary to claims made by some, the gospel is not performative utterance, it is an offer. That some do respond and others of the same group do not respond should demonstrate the fact well enough. And no, the the story that "God decided who would believe" doesn't float ... if the command is performative utterance, anyone hearing that command would be forced into compliance.

                    "A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)
                    "The lord opened her heart to respond" doesn't say "the lord made her respond;" it shows that the way was opened for her to respond (appropriately).

                    But this analogy is not Scriptural, the Scriptural analogy would be "he got rescued when he was born", "he got rescued when his eyes were opened", "... when he was raised from the dead".
                    No - the scriptural story would be that he got rescued when he repented (both Old and New Testaments so attest), which is not to say that rescue is complete at that point - just that he has taken hold of the rope. And being raised from the dead, when it comes to the matter of salvation, is a matter of rising from the waters of baptism. So Paul attests.


                    That God is the source of our belief!
                    Your response doesn't indicate that you conducted the exercise.

                    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
                    not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph 2:8–9)
                    The gift of God in this passage is not faith (as you point out below). Faith is no more than the conduit allowing grace to act for salvation. That we are saved by grace is declared in verse 4. Not by faith, but by grace, is declared - in just so many words in the passage of which Eph 2:8-9 is a part. Then there is the declaration in verse 10 - that "we are created for the good works that God prepared in advance so that we might walk in them."
                    The outcomes for the one who does not walk in them ...

                    And as I have seen, the conclusion here is that "salvation by grace through faith" is the gift of God, and is not of ourselves.
                    Correct.

                    Why do good works not save a person?
                    Someone commits murder. Thereafter, that person spent the past 20 years doing only good works. Then he is identified as the perpetrator of that murder 20 years earlier, he is tried and convicted. Do his good works save him? Not so, but a pardon (grace) will. BUT - just how much effect will that pardon have if the person then goes on to commit murder again - can he say "but I have been pardoned"?

                    Source: Evangelical Exegetical Commentary

                    In Greek, events as a whole are treated as neuter singular things with neuter articles (e.g., τὸ πιστεύειν, to pisteuein, “believing”), neuter relative pronouns (e.g., Eph. 5:5), or neuter demonstrative pronouns, as in v. 8b (also, for example: 6:1; 1 Cor 6:6, 8; Phil 1:22, 28; Col 3:20; 1 Thess 5:18; 1 Tim 2:1–3). Hence, the antecedent of τοῦτο (touto) is the whole event: "being saved by grace through faith."

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    [/QUOTE]

                    Hence, the "this verse says that faith is the gift of God" story doesn't float. (not to mention that this declaration continues the statement made just a few verses earlier, "by grace you are saved").
                    Nowhere is the claim made that we are saved by faith alone. Every occurrence of "saved by faith" has faith paired with something else. The only occurrence of "faith alone" states flatly that we are not saved by faith alone.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 03-31-2019, 07:20 PM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                      I think you will search the Scripture in vain to find two separate commands or gospels - an effective gospel for the elect and an ineffective gospel for the reprobate. The same command goes out to all, and all can decide to obey the command to repent or to continue to live in rebellion to his messiah.

                      Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
                      Originally posted by tabibito
                      "The command is effective" - it that were so, no-one would be able to refuse the gospel. Contrary to claims made by some, the gospel is not performative utterance, it is an offer.
                      Well, I don't believe people can decide whether to repent, or that the gospel is simply an offer:

                      "... with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
                      and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim. 2:25-26)

                      But I believe that God gives only effectual commands!

                      "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
                      And do not return there without watering the earth
                      And making it bear and sprout,
                      And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
                      So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
                      It will not return to Me empty,
                      Without accomplishing what I desire,
                      And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:10–11)

                      So when God commands everyone everywhere to repent, we may hope that his word will accomplish its purpose, that all will repent.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      Last edited by lee_merrill; 04-01-2019, 08:20 PM.
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        "The lord opened her heart to respond" doesn't say "the lord made her respond;" it shows that the way was opened for her to respond (appropriately).
                        "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
                        and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17)

                        So we see that God can also close hearts.

                        No - the scriptural story would be that he got rescued when he repented (both Old and New Testaments so attest)…
                        And God grants repentance!

                        "... with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
                        and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim. 2:25-26)

                        Nowhere is the claim made that we are saved by faith alone. Every occurrence of "saved by faith" has faith paired with something else. The only occurrence of "faith alone" states flatly that we are not saved by faith alone.
                        Well, I believe James is looking at the end of a process, where in his example Abraham was justified by his works, at which point the righteousness that had been credited to him was then substantially real. That is, Abraham was really righteous then, not just having credited righteousness. So justified by works in that final-righteousness sense, and not by faith alone.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Well, I don't believe people can decide whether to repent, or that the gospel is simply an offer:

                          "... with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
                          and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim. 2:25-26)
                          It is admittedly inconvenient to acknowledge the fact that God does not do it all. However, "God grants them repentance" does not mean "God forces them to repent" - it acknowledges that God might withhold the opportunity to repent (whether temporarily or permanently). This verse does NOT contradict all the other verses which show the requirement for a person to repent (active verb - the person himself does it). This verse sits alongside those other verses, and is part of the broader picture of God's sovereignty. Most evident in this matter, is God's dealing with the pharaoh of Moses time, where pharaoh hardens his own heart often enough for God (to say "enough" and withhold the opportunity for the pharaoh to repent and) to harden the pharaoh's heart.

                          But I believe that God gives only effectual commands!

                          "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
                          And do not return there without watering the earth
                          And making it bear and sprout,
                          And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
                          So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
                          It will not return to Me empty,
                          Without accomplishing what I desire,
                          And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:10–11)

                          So when God commands everyone everywhere to repent, we may hope that his word will accomplish its purpose, that all will repent.
                          Will means "desire", it doesn't mean "decision."

                          As was adequately noted by others in that same thread, (OBP and CP in particular), it is clear that God's desire is that all repent. It is equally clear (as also adequately noted in that same thread) that not all do repent. As to the word of the Lord that doesn't return empty - the word in question is this:

                          Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him

                          No grant repentance is stated. And an inference that "all will repent" would be pure eisegesis. The inference is that the LORD will have mercy on ANY that repent.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 04-01-2019, 09:22 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Acts 2:40 ετεροις τε λογοις πλειοσιν διεμαρτυρετο και παρεκαλει λεγων σωθητε απο της γενεας της σκολιας ταυτης
                            Acts 2:40 other- also - with words - many - he was testifying - and - he was urging, - saying - get saved - from - the - generation - the corrupt - this
                            Acts 2:40 with many other words also, he was testifying and urging (them), saying, "be saved from this corrupt generation!" (TBM)

                            Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. KJV

                            Acts 2:40 Using many different expressions, Peter continued to testify and to plead with them, saying, “Be saved from this corrupt generation!” ISV

                            It is readily apparent that there is no performative utterance here - even without the record of verse 41

                            Acts 2:41 οι μεν ουν ασμενως αποδεξαμενοι τον λογον αυτου εβαπτισθησαν ...
                            Acts 2:41 they - indeed - then - gladly - accepting - the - word - of him - they got baptised ...
                            Acts 2:41 then indeed, they gladly accepting the word were baptised...
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              And you love the group by loving the individuals, is what I am after--you can't separate the two.
                              Yes, you can! You don't have to love the individuals to love the group.

                              Yes, so the individual mandate and the command to the group are bound together.
                              Because of the Honor/Shame culture of the time and place. Individuals brought shame on the group by unrighteous behavior, even though individually they were clean before God if their faith is in Christ. It's a theme Paul proclaims throughout his epistles.

                              Because knowledge can be given by God directly: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law." (Rom. 3:19) This knowledge here in Rom. 3:19 would not seem to be a knowledge based on past experience, instead it's based on insight.
                              In context, that verse says nothing like you're proclaiming. It clearly says that the Law speaks to those under the Law (Israel). It doesn't say anything about special revelation.

                              Source: Bible Knowledge Commentary

                              Believers, Paul began, know of sanctification’s certainty, and that knowledge is gained by spiritual perception.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              can you link to this commentary please?

                              And how could Paul's readers know that all things work together for good by examining past history? Knowing this involves some measure of faith, that God will work out everything that happens to his saints, for good.
                              Many (if not most) of Paul's readers are Jewish. They know from history because they've been taught it since birth. They would also have passed along to the gentile believers this history.

                              But what I find in the commentaries is that past tense represents certainty, not time in the past:

                              Source: Bible Knowledge Commentary

                              Between the start and finish of God’s plan are three steps: being called (cf. Rom. 1:6; 8:28), being justified (cf. 3:24, 28; 4:2; 5:1, 9), and being glorified (cf. 8:17; Col. 1:27; 3:4), and in the process not a single person is lost. God completes His plan without slippage. “Glorified” is in the past tense because this final step is so certain that in God’s eyes it is as good as done.

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                              Source: Word Biblical Commentary

                              Paul is obviously looking forward to the consummation of God’s purpose (vv 29–30)

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Probably because you naturally focus on and cite commentaries that agree with you. But, what I've been saying isn't without precedent. Here's a cite from Adam Clark's Commentary on Romans 8 found here: https://www.studylight.org/commentar.../romans-8.html
                              Source: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/romans-8.html Verse 30

                              Verse 30
                              Whom he did predestinate, etc. - The Gentiles, whom He determined to call into his Church with the Jewish people, He called - He invited by the preaching of the Gospel, to believe on his Son Jesus Christ. It is worthy of note, that all that is spoken here refers to what had already taken place; for the calling, justifying, and glorifying are here represented as having already taken place, as well as the foreknowing and the predestinating. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that the apostle refers to what God had already done among the Jews and Gentiles: though he may also speak of the things that were not as though they were.

                              He also justified - Pardoned the sins of all those who with hearty repentance and true faith turned unto him.

                              He also glorified - He has honored and dignified the Gentiles with the highest privileges, and he has already taken many of them to the kingdom of glory, and many more are on their way thither; and all who love him, and continue faithful unto death, shall inherit that glory eternally. Hence it is added, them he also glorified; for all the honors which he confers on them have respect to and are intended to promote their endless felicity; and though the terms are here used in a more general sense, yet, if we take them more restrictedly, we must consider that in the work of justification sanctification is implied; justification being the foundation and beginning of that work. From all this we learn that none will be glorified who have not been sanctified and justified; that the justified are those who have been called or invited by the Gospel of Christ; that those who have had this calling are they to whom God determined to grant this privilege - they did not choose this salvation first, but God sent it to them when they knew him not - and therefore the salvation of the Gentile world, as well as that of the Jews, comes through the gratuitous mercy of God himself, was the result of infinite designs, and stands on the same ground as the calling, etc., of the Jewish people. The word δοξα, which we render glory, and δοξαζω, to glorify, both mean to render illustrious, eminent, etc., etc., in various parts of the New Testament; and in this sense the verb is used John 11:4; John 12:23, John 12:28; John 13:31, John 13:32; John 14:13; John 15:8; John 21:19; Acts 3:13; Acts 11:13; in none of which places eternal beatification can be intended. Here it seems to mean that those whom God had called into a state of justification he had rendered illustrious by innumerable gifts, graces, and privileges, in the same manner as he had done to the Israelites of old.

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                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                                The preceptive will of God is that our allegiance be unto him and his Son, Jesus Christ. A significant point of the Arminian–Calvinist divide concerns the question of whether God has unconditionally determined which individuals will submit to the yoke of Christ (unconditional salvational election) and which individuals will not (unconditional reprobation).

                                A person freely submitting to become a slave of Christ implies that s/he genuinely could have chosen otherwise and remained a slave of sin.

                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                But slaves cannot choose to free themselves! Nor can blind people open their eyes, nor dead people raise themselves, nor a person choose to be born, all the metaphors of salvation are passive on the part of the person.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                All scriptural metaphors have their limitations and may be stretched in such ways by us that they were never intended to be understood. I would imagine that both you and I would agree that (1) the biblical authors describe unbelievers as being in a state of spiritual slavery, darkness, blindness, and, yes, even deadness; and (2) regeneration is the act of God. An unbeliever is consequently unable to, of his/her own will or desire, make him-/herself born anew.

                                The glad tidings of salvation in Jesus Christ is presented in scripture as requiring the human response of repentance and faith (baptism and confession of Christ may also be added). In other words, the recipients of the good news are called to do certain things in order to become beneficiaries of salvation.

                                Faith, the instrumental cause of salvation, is not wholly passive, but both passive and active; neither aspect of faith (assent and trust) may be safely denied. Individuals both pursue Christ and rest in him and his promises.
                                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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