The Simplicity of the Gospel in One Word

[tabibito]

I know very well what I am talking about, and how it relates to apostoli's point.

See, there is only ONE Wisdom. To know Christ is to know the TRUTH; and TRUTH encompasses EVERYTHING. So then, the Wisdom that is of God is drawn from the knowledge of the Truth, from knowledge of ALL things. We cannot know God without knowing the Truth/Everything.

In one sense, you are correct. But you are making too fine a distinction, and one which would in fact make it impossible to know another person or even oneself. Your definition would have it that it is impossible to know the truth - a claim that is denied by the Bible.
John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Knowing truth follows on from abiding in the word of Christ. The implications should be self evident. ... but then, no doubt, there would be people claiming that this statement is only applicable to the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking at the time.

[FarEastBird]

In one sense, you are correct. But you are making too fine a distinction, and one which would in fact make it impossible to know another person or even oneself. Your definition would have it that it is impossible to know the truth - a claim that is denied by the Bible.

I think that you really have to know the distinctions between knowledge and wisdom. We can be "full of wisdom" without knowing every knowledge there is that can be known. When we speak of Christ as the Truth, we only speak of knowledge that are particular to attaining the fullness of wisdom. The Bible itself is clear that we cannot know the mind of God, and even other things about the world. But we can grow in the same mind with God, as in having the fullness of wisdom, not in quantity of knowledge.

Note that saying "Christ is the Truth" is a figurative speech. You would not think that Jesus is Everything, would you?

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Knowing truth follows on from abiding in the word of Christ. The implications should be self evident. ... but then, no doubt, there would be people claiming that this statement is only applicable to the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking at the time.

You see, you have to note that Christ used the word "word," not "wordS." Once you come to understand the distinctions, and of the real meaning of the "word," (not "wordS"), then you can define how you will "abide" on it. If we differ how we understand the "word," then expect that we differ in obeying the command to "abide in his word."


My understanding is that the "word" = Jesus = Truth = Wisdom. Thus, I abide in Wisdom.

[tabibito]

I think that you really have to know the distinctions between knowledge and wisdom. We can be "full of wisdom" without knowing every knowledge there is that can be known. When we speak of Christ as the Truth, we only speak of knowledge that are particular to attaining the fullness of wisdom. The Bible itself is clear that we cannot know the mind of God, and even other things about the world. But we can grow in the same mind with God, as in having the fullness of wisdom, not in quantity of knowledge.

Your original premise was the impossibility of knowing the truth.

See, there is only ONE Wisdom. To know Christ is to know the TRUTH; and TRUTH encompasses EVERYTHING. So then, the Wisdom that is of God is drawn from the knowledge of the Truth, from knowledge of ALL things. We cannot know God without knowing the Truth/Everything.

Given that the Bible declares that we can know God, either it is possible to know God without knowing everything, or it is in fact possible to know everything. The Bible also only declares that one factor is associated with knowing God, so I'm inclined to believe that the first option is correct.

Note that saying "Christ is the Truth" is a figurative speech. You would not think that Jesus is Everything, would you?

Condescension noted.

You see, you have to note that Christ used the word "word," not "wordS." Once you come to understand the distinctions, and of the real meaning of the "word," (not "wordS"), then you can define how you will "abide" on it. If we differ how we understand the "word," then expect that we differ in obeying the command to "abide in his word."

The understanding of the use of "word" in this statement is readily apparent.

My understanding is that the "word" = Jesus = Truth = Wisdom. Thus, I abide in Wisdom.

Jesus didn't say to abide in THE word, but to abide in HIS word. Big difference.

[37818]

The process begins when a person understands that by the Holy Spirit, he is enabled to stop sinning. The process is completed .... maybe 40 years later.
The new born baby (all being well) has the potential to walk - it will take time for the baby to learn how to reach that potential. Likewise, the new born Christian has the potential to stop sinning - it will take time to reach that potential. Assuming he ever learns that he has the potential.

It would seem you do not understand difference between the false attainning of self righteousness from God's righteousness He freely giues to them that believe (Romans 4:5).

[tabibito]

It would seem you do not understand difference between the false attainning of self righteousness from God's righteousness He freely giues to them that believe (Romans 4:5).

Just a small, but representative sample:
We shall see him as he is. He who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he also is pure.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

It would seem you do not understand difference between the false attainning of self righteousness from God's righteousness He freely giues to them that believe (Romans 4:5).

And the idea that this can be done without aegis of the Holy Spirit never featured in my comments - so the claim that this is self righteousness rather than righteousness in Christ attained through the Holy Spirit is spurious.

[FarEastBird]

Your original premise was the impossibility of knowing the truth.

tabibito, I understand your point. You should know that I would not be disagreeing with you about this since the beginning. I miss to note about this issue because I was focused on answering the main point of our discussion with apostoli, unless, of course, some need clarification like you did, and I did respond.

The very main issue I am being accused of is of others calling me a gnostic, my answer to apostoli is on the point, and very wise.

Given that the Bible declares that we can know God, either it is possible to know God without knowing everything, or it is in fact possible to know everything. The Bible also only declares that one factor is associated with knowing God, so I'm inclined to believe that the first option is correct.

OIC, now I know where you are misunderstanding me. And I guess that is where I may have missed to clarify.

First I am not denying that we should know God. My foremost point though, for which I am being accused as gnostic, is that we are saved through wisdom, not knowledge. Apostoli's response was painting me as a gnostic, and by my claiming that there is only ONE wisdom, then he should eliminate the thought that I am a gnostic. I am not disagreeing with apostoli, as well as with you, that we should know God. But there is vast implications when we speak of the difference of wisdom and knowledge; this is the crucial point. One can have knowledge, but can't have the wisdom. Though it is not possible to have wisdom without knowledge.

Jesus didn't say to abide in THE word, but to abide in HIS word. Big difference.

THE word, or HIS word, is the same. Else, tell me... what is HIS word?

Your point is a simple reason why we ought not lean on the LETTER. If you delve to study the context of THE word, and HIS word, you will end up searching that both is the same. It is just a matter of how it is presented. We can only come to such conclusion through Wisdom. Other than through Wisdom, you will end up to confusion. Even in this: how would you come to conclusion that "the WAY" and "the Truth" speak of the same? Without speaking of "the Way" and "the Truth" as of Wisdom, you will never end up understanding them to be the same. The words of the Bible has context that is different to our normal usage, or even to what it literally meant. Even in simple grammar, the word "all" may not mean "all."

What I pointed about the "word" and the "wordS" is not about grammar. I am speaking of the context in the Bible.

[tabibito]

Even in simple grammar, the word "all" may not mean "all."

Indeed, παν,πας,πασα and the other variants do not mean "all". "All" is simply the nearest English equivalent. There is no word in English that means "all with the possibility of a scant few exceptions".

If you delve to study the context of THE word, and HIS word

Even in this: how would you come to conclusion that "the WAY" and "the Truth" speak of the same?

I can see how someone could come to that conclusion. However, it would be incorrect. "The way of truth" and the "truth of the way" might be considered to be the same, but they are different. And the precise meaning of "way" is not insignificant. "way" should be taken in its sense of "(high)way" and "(by)way" - a road or path. So - we have a path of (that belongs to) truth - perhaps a path that is (wholly) truth - "truth is the guide by which we set our path", as contrasted with, "the truth of the path" which would simply declare the truths that are relevant to the path.
Christianity is the path of truth.
Polytheism, Atheism, Christianity etc. each have their own truths of their paths.
The truth of the path of sin is readily apparent. And very different from the truth of the path of righteousness. Each truth includes a declaration of the ultimate ending of the relevant path.

[FarEastBird]

I can see how someone could come to that conclusion. However, it would be incorrect. "The way of truth" and the "truth of the way" might be considered to be the same, but they are different.

What you are trying to do is good to exercise our brain. But you have missed my prior warning: you are judging by the "LETTER." You do not have to be very wise because it is obvious, that by the Letter, "Truth" and "Way" are two different things. These letters obviously conveys different signs, and therefore speaks of different knowledge and understanding. There is no way that these two words would speak of the same - if we understand them through Letters.

But look at this. I can ask a group of people about LOVE and different people will explain it differently. And, don't be surprised, when these people would agree with each other. They would agree with each other because their explanations were not bounded by the letter, but of their understanding.

When the Bible says God is love, you do not look at the dictionary, and every word reference you could get, to understand what love mean. And neither would the Bible even mean that "God IS love"; we also have to not understand it according to letter, else we will end up in confusions.

It is the understanding, or wisdom, by which we are saved. Without the wisdom and understanding, one would just end up understanding "the Way" and "the Truth" the same as you do, and consequently end up misunderstanding the word of God, and even end up unconsciously denying it.

There is understanding by which we could refer "the WAY" to Christ as the Bible wants to present it, not by looking at the dictionary.

[37818]

Just a small, but representative sample:
We shall see him as he is. He who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he also is pure.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

". . . For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."

And the idea that this can be done without aegis of the Holy Spirit never featured in my comments - so the claim that this is self righteousness rather than righteousness in Christ attained through the Holy Spirit is spurious.

[apostoli]

There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom is based on knowledge; thus one cannot have wisdom without knowledge. Yet one can have knowledge without wisdom. Two persons can agree with a certain knowledge about love, but they may differ in maturity. A matured person understand love with wisdom, not with mere knowledge. If you are understanding what I am saying, you would already notice your error. If you cannot know the difference between wisdom and knowledge, then all I am saying is nonsense to you. Truth is, regardless how much one would explain what wisdom is, the knower will only understand it when he has the gift of ability to receive it.


Now, it is wisdom that saves, not knowledge.

Eccl 7:12
12 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

Prov 4:7
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


1Cor 1:24
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Not a good idea to appeal to someone who broke a majority of the most severe segments of the ten commandments (a statutory rapist, who conspired to murder the husband of his victim, usurped the high priesthood, had himself received in equivalence to YHWH, and was prohibited by YHWH in building a temple that YHWH didn't want and which led to the eventual collapse of Jerusalem/Judaism because of the aberrance of his progeny which caused the end of the covenant with Abraham concerning the physical Jews).

Knowledge is useful whether it be simple gnosis, complex epignosis or realistic ginōskō, to use the Greek terms, but Wisdom comes with understanding what is going on...

As Aristotle once wrote, x says that we cannot cross the same stream twice, for from knowledge, we know at a molecular level the water in a stream keeps moving. So while such knowledge (gnosis/epignosis) is true. The fact is that daily, in experience (ginōskō), we cross the same stream daily!!! Think about it!!!!!

[DesertBerean]

Not a good idea to appeal to someone who broke a majority of the most severe segments of the ten commandments (a statutory rapist, who conspired to murder the husband of his victim, usurped the high priesthood, had himself received in equivalence to YHWH, and was prohibited by YHWH in building a temple that YHWH didn't want and which led to the eventual collapse of Jerusalem/Judaism because of the aberrance of his progeny which caused the end of the covenant with Abraham concerning the physical Jews).

Knowledge is useful whether it be simple gnosis, complex epignosis or realistic ginōskō, to use the Greek terms, but Wisdom comes with understanding what is going on...

As Aristotle once wrote, x says that we cannot cross the same stream twice, for from knowledge, we know at a molecular level the water in a stream keeps moving. So while such knowledge (gnosis/epignosis) is true. The fact is that daily, in experience (ginōskō), we cross the same stream daily!!! Think about it!!!!!

Wow. You really think David did all that? And...the last part of your statement sounds very Gnostic.

[apostoli]

I do not think you understood apostoli's point. There is a difference between having knowledge of God and personally knowing God.

". . . this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Thankyou! I am unsure that anyone can have epignosis (full and accurate knowledge of God = the extreme-Arian viewpoint eg: eunomonius), but I am confident I can have a personal relationship with him/them (the Nicene viewpoint and the intent, imu, of the homoosius in the creed). .

[apostoli]

Wow. You really think David did all that? And...the last part of your statement sounds very Gnostic.

Read Chronicles, read Samuel it is no secret. He raped Bathsheba statutorily (thou shalt not covet your neighbours wife, plus David was King and Bathsheba had to bow to his will. Then when she got pregnant he arranged for the death of her husband).

Nothing Gnostic in anything I relate, no interpretation needed, all I said concerning David is explicitly stated and evidenced in the OT, should you care to read it!!!

As an aside, concerning your accusation of gnosticism: Jesus claim to Kingship is via Mary via Natham not Joseph's hereditary to Solomon. Joseph's line was directly condemned by YHWH never to ascend to the throne as any Jew or someone with a semblance of scriptural knowledge will tell you!!! One has to discern between the flow and the stream...

[FarEastBird]

Not a good idea to appeal to someone who broke a majority of the most severe segments of the ten commandments (a statutory rapist, who conspired to murder the husband of his victim, usurped the high priesthood, had himself received in equivalence to YHWH, and was prohibited by YHWH in building a temple that YHWH didn't want and which led to the eventual collapse of Jerusalem/Judaism because of the aberrance of his progeny which caused the end of the covenant with Abraham concerning the physical Jews).

Knowledge is useful whether it be simple gnosis, complex epignosis or realistic ginōskō, to use the Greek terms, but Wisdom comes with understanding what is going on...

As Aristotle once wrote, x says that we cannot cross the same stream twice, for from knowledge, we know at a molecular level the water in a stream keeps moving. So while such knowledge (gnosis/epignosis) is true. The fact is that daily, in experience (ginōskō), we cross the same stream daily!!! Think about it!!!!!

First, and foremost, we should not tell the blind to guide himself. "If the blind leads the blind, as Jesus says, "both will fall on the ditch." Yet simple as it may, many Christians lead others to learn about the gospel, but not knowing the truth of the gospel. Armed with their ability to make examination of the written word of God, they thought they can search, by their own, the truth of the will of God.

And even, there is more far evil that is happening in these present time. For as much as most of us understand that man cannot simply understand the word of God, yet many of us put the authority of interpretations of the word of God unto people who were esteemed merely because of their exemplary wits, and academic excellence. And in this culture of judging authority, people tend to ignore the truth that it is God who sends the people to speak His word unto men.

Now here is the mystery. God, since the beginning, had disallowed us to live ourselves according to our wisdom, this mystery is being shadowed unto us from the story of Adam and Eve. But how would we come know the evilness of trying to live with our own knowledge and understanding, unless we come to experience it ourselves? At the very beginning we are commanded not to lean on our own understanding, yet it necessitates God to command us to live on our knowledge and understanding, just for us to know the evil of leaning on our own understanding. So know and understand the true reason of why we were given laws and commandments. The commandment for us to lean on our understanding was given before the time of Christ. And when Christ came, he taught us the truth of our salvation, where a different law and covenant is given unto us. He had given us the knowledge of the truth.

So, though I tell everyone to walk according to wisdom, one should realize that no one can search out the truth of God by their own. If one cannot understand, or would not accept, their ignorance of the gospel, they would not even realize the very evil that is happening unto them. If one cannot accept ignorance of the gospel, he will keep leaning in his own understanding.

[apostoli]

...Apostoli's response was painting me as a gnostic, and by my claiming that there is only ONE wisdom, then he should eliminate the thought that I am a gnostic. I am not disagreeing with apostoli, as well as with you, that we should know God. But there is vast implications when we speak of the difference of wisdom and knowledge; this is the crucial point. One can have knowledge, but can't have the wisdom. Though it is not possible to have wisdom without knowledge...

Hi! I've been out of scope for sometime. Would you point me to any post where I've directly branded you as gnostic? Honestly, I have no recollection and it generally would have been uncharestic of me - unless you made what I would, imu, understood as as explicit 2nd century gnostic statement...so I'd like to trace backwards...