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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does Mark 7:19 declare all foods to be clean?
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostThat -- he was saying there's nothing magical to damn a Jew if he mistakenly eats bacon. He's not saying for Jews to go ahead and eat it though."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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The inspired commentary within verse 19 states that it is a declaration of cleanliness, so this seems to be an open and shut case."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Umm the Deut verses has to do with those who are preaching in the name of other gods, not about eating "unclean" foods. The Matthew verses just say that the Old covenant will remain intact until Heaven and earth pass away. Check Matt 24:35 for a parallel (see here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...24&version=NIV)-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostUmm the Deut verses has to do with those who are preaching in the name of other gods, not about eating "unclean" foods.
Deuteronomy speaks both of teaching them to follow other gods and teaching them to not follow God's commands. The kosher laws are part of God's commands, so if Jesus had been teaching against keeping kosher in Mark 7, then he would have been a false prophet.
The Matthew verses just say that the Old covenant will remain intact until Heaven and earth pass away. Check Matt 24:35 for a parallel (see here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...24&version=NIV)"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe inspired commentary within verse 19 states that it is a declaration of cleanliness, so this seems to be an open and shut case.
http://www.torahresource.com/English...9ShortNote.pdf"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostThe subject was eating food that was normally clean being made ceremonially unclean by eating it with unwashed hands, so neither kosher laws or unintentional sins were mentioned. Furthermore, it was never a sin to become ceremonially unclean, so Mark 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the redefining what counts as sin.
Jesus and disciples had been healing people including the woman with an issue in Mark 5. Leviticus 15 does command washing after touching such people. Since Jesus was not a false prophet teaching to ignore God's Laws, I assume they observed that part of the Law. However I don't see anything about washing before you eat in that part of Written Law.
So it seems some Jews were overdoing it just to play it safe, and Jesus was admonishing them for being superstitious and adding to God's Law. As well as for not being more concerned about spiritual purity.
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostKeep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy speaks both of teaching them to follow other gods and teaching them to not follow God's commands. The kosher laws are part of God's commands, so if Jesus had been teaching against keeping kosher in Mark 7, then he would have been a false prophet.
I don't think he was talking about the Old covenant there.
The prophet tried to turn them from YHWH by speaking in the name of other gods and say that these other gods should be worshipped specifically.
And can't God command different things that don't contradict his character?
The parallel was to heaven and earth passing away (which links back to matt 5 where the same Greek (I think) is used).
Jesus is more or less saying in Matt 5 that the Old covenant was still available (in his day) and that he was not there to abolish it.
The part about the commandments refers to the commandments he gave them after matt 5:19 (the logic follows from verses 17 and 18 because these commandments are based on the law which Jesus set out to teach).-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostMark 7:15 "Nothing..." would seem to be nothing, including kosher. So I would stick with the idea that it's not the food in some magic way, but disobedience to God, that defiles.
Jesus and disciples had been healing people including the woman with an issue in Mark 5. Leviticus 15 does command washing after touching such people. Since Jesus was not a false prophet teaching to ignore God's Laws, I assume they observed that part of the Law. However I don't see anything about washing before you eat in that part of Written Law.
So it seems some Jews were overdoing it just to play it safe, and Jesus was admonishing them for being superstitious and adding to God's Law. As well as for not being more concerned about spiritual purity.Last edited by Soyeong; 01-18-2014, 10:32 PM."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostThere is a difference between the word used for unclean animals and ceremonially unclean. The Greek word used in Mark 7:15 is koinais, which refers to nothing entering the body making it ceremonially unclean. Both the context and the word used do not refer the kosher laws.
Leviticus 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI'm not sure why you're bringing up magic, it's about Temple purity. When the woman touched Jesus in Mark 5 he became ceremonially unclean, but as I said earlier, there is no sin in that. That just means that Jesus had to purify himself before he did things related to the Temple.
Leviticus 15:18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
Originally posted by Soyeong View PostYou are correct that washing hands before you eat is not part of the written law; it is part of the oral law. It is this oral law that Jesus countermanded, not the written law.
Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIt had nothing to do with being superstitious and everything to do with interpreting the Torah on the side of caution.
Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIt really does make no sense for Jesus to criticize them for setting aside the commands of God in favor of keeping their traditions, only to set aside the commands of God a few verses later.
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostYeah you are to obey God but what if God wishes to annul a commandment? Why cant God do that?
The prophet tried to turn them from YHWH by speaking in the name of other gods and say that these other gods should be worshipped specifically.
And can't God command different things that don't contradict his character?
James 1:25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
The Torah is perfect and holy, why would God change it? Sin is an affront to God's character, why we He change what was sin? Jesus said he came not to interpret the Torah in a way that undermines, but to interpret it properly. Teaching against keeping the kosher laws would have undermined it. There is consistent high praise for the Torah throughout the OT and NT and Jesus kept the Torah perfectly, so it doesn't strike as something that he would be annul. And if he had planned to annul some of his commands, it doesn't make much sense to instruct his people to kill anyone who taught against his people keeping them.
The parallel was to heaven and earth passing away (which links back to matt 5 where the same Greek (I think) is used).
Jesus is more or less saying in Matt 5 that the Old covenant was still available (in his day) and that he was not there to abolish it.
The part about the commandments refers to the commandments he gave them after matt 5:19 (the logic follows from verses 17 and 18 because these commandments are based on the law which Jesus set out to teach).Last edited by Soyeong; 01-18-2014, 11:16 PM."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Eating an unclean animal makes one unclean.
Commands aren't necessarily related to the Temple (there was no Temple in days of Leviticus anyway), for example:
Leviticus 15:18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
They had to wash, whether they went to a Temple or not.
Superstition as in, God's gonna get me if I don't wash my hands just in case..."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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This phrase in verse 16 was commonly used to indicate the end of a parableThat's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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