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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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How can there be human moral culpability without libertarian free will?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that the falling man is not making any choices. He is being acted upon externally.
    Those aren't mutually exclusive. In your view no man ever has LFW. As I've defined LFW (a causal chain beginning in the agent rather than externally), your view therefore implies that every action of every man is the result of mechanistic/deterministic causal chains that all originate externally to the agent. Therefore every motion of any man is the result of being acted on externally. There may very well be internal forces/motions (such as making choices), but they too must logically be the result of being acted on externally. A rock too has internal forces/motions, just not as complex.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Joel View Post
      Those aren't mutually exclusive. In your view no man ever has LFW. As I've defined LFW (a causal chain beginning in the agent rather than externally), your view therefore implies that every action of every man is the result of mechanistic/deterministic causal chains that all originate externally to the agent. Therefore every motion of any man is the result of being acted on externally. There may very well be internal forces/motions (such as making choices), but they too must logically be the result of being acted on externally. A rock too has internal forces/motions, just not as complex.
      Well, sure. The question is: Would God make someone a certain way (i.e. as an external force) and then judge them (i.e. hold them morally culpable) for being that way? As we've seen, according to Scripture, the answer is "Yes."

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      • #93
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        Well, sure. The question is: Would God make someone a certain way (i.e. as an external force) and then judge them (i.e. hold them morally culpable) for being that way? As we've seen, according to Scripture, the answer is "Yes."
        According to scripture, that answer is an emphatic "NO"...

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        • #94
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          Well, sure. The question is: Would God make someone a certain way (i.e. as an external force) and then judge them (i.e. hold them morally culpable) for being that way? As we've seen, according to Scripture, the answer is "Yes."
          As I recall, we disagreed on that point. At minimum we left that as an open question (we were pointing out the differing interpretations of Chrysostom and Augustine).

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