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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Does Luke 10:13 cause problems for Molinism?

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  • Does Luke 10:13 cause problems for Molinism?

    At least, the form of Molinism as popularly defended by William Lane Craig. My understanding is that he argue that those who do not have the opportunity to hear the gospel are those whom God knows never would have repented anyway. However, Luke 10:13 says: "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes". This seems to cause problems for that position. (I got this idea from a comment posted here: http://www.rightreason.org/2014/jerr...tion-of-grace/ )
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Transworld damned is not necessary to molinism. That verse actually is brought forth in support of molinism by some as positing a counterfactual reality. Craig doesn't do that, possibly because of the problem you note.

    I used to be a molinist and found the explanation of transworld damned to be ad hoc and unplausible.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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    • #3
      In terms of fatalism and a deterrence from soul-winning, Molinism has a lot of the same bad characteristics as Calvinism. Would Paul really have been so zealous to evangelize if he felt like the outcome was predetermined?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        In terms of fatalism and a deterrence from soul-winning, Molinism has a lot of the same bad characteristics as Calvinism. Would Paul really have been so zealous to evangelize if he felt like the outcome was predetermined?
        Yes, he would have, because he knew that God had already ordained success for him.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          Yes, he would have, because he knew that God had already ordained success for him.
          That and he didn't seem to have much of a problem going along with God's will.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            In terms of fatalism and a deterrence from soul-winning, Molinism has a lot of the same bad characteristics as Calvinism. Would Paul really have been so zealous to evangelize if he felt like the outcome was predetermined?
            For both Arminians and Calvinists, the primary motive for evangelism should be obedience to the Lord. That said, I do believe the "logic of evangelism" makes a lot better sense from a free-will theistic perspective. Calling all persons to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ1 strikes me as genuine only when universal atonement, enabling grace, and libertarian free will are presupposed.


            Note

            1 Sometimes referred to as the general, indiscriminate, or outward call.
            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              In terms of fatalism and a deterrence from soul-winning, Molinism has a lot of the same bad characteristics as Calvinism. Would Paul really have been so zealous to evangelize if he felt like the outcome was predetermined?
              Silly statement. I could make a similar silly statement against Arminianism but I so disgusted by the emotional appeals that pass for arguments today.
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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              • #8
                Even if Calvinism could somehow be proven to make people less interested in being missionaries (which I don't see any evidence of), it would have no objective effect on whether it is true or not.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                • #9
                  Precisely.
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                  • #10
                    Although I did attack Calvinism indirectly, my main purpose was to attack the trans-world damnation theory. I feel like that idea, while well-intentioned, is not only false (as stated in the opening post) but also a bit dangerous.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      Although I did attack Calvinism indirectly, my main purpose was to attack the trans-world damnation theory. I feel like that idea, while well-intentioned, is not only false (as stated in the opening post) but also a bit dangerous.
                      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                      • #12
                        I'm seeing the term "transworld damnation" frequently in this thread but have no idea what it means. Can somebody help?
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I'm seeing the term "transworld damnation" frequently in this thread but have no idea what it means. Can somebody help?
                          I think this is something William Lane Craig made up.
                          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                            I think this is something William Lane Craig made up.
                            So I suppose I'm outing myself as one who doesn't watch his videos.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              So I suppose I'm outing myself as one who doesn't watch his videos.
                              Who does?

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