Is everything part of God's plan?

[Obsidian]

Just asking God a question isn't much of a condemnation

[RBerman]

Just asking God a question isn't much of a condemnation

Such a question, when attached to a judgment, implicitly accuses injustice. Molinism is said to avert such accusations of divine injustice by preserving a sense of LFW, but I am not convinced that Molinism does anything more than kick the can of justice down the road a bit, rather than actually picking it up.

[Obsidian]

Calvinists often state that God is the author of all sin. Molinists do not. That is the distinction.

[dacristoy]

Quick question: Is Molinism more of a cyber religion, what organized religion (Church) teaches the tenets of Molinism as a part of their regular church teachings.

[phat8594]

True, but Molinism still doesn't absolve God of ultimate responsibility, if one was trying to accomplish such. That is, a man going to Hell would still be able to say, "Why, God, did you not substantiate the possible, feasible world in which I freely chose to become a Christian, rather than the one in which I did not?"

It seems to me that sort of question only holds any muster when asked with a Calvinist definition of 'free will', versus the LFW definition of free will.

After all, the LFW definition always goes back to the person being the one who freely determined the choice -- rather than the choice being determined by something outside of their will (God, another person, human nature, etc.)



_________________________
note: I am not a molinist

[RBerman]

Calvinists often state that God is the author of all sin. Molinists do not. That is the distinction.

I have never seen a Calvinist state that God is the author of sin. Can you give me an example of one?

[Joel]

True, but Molinism still doesn't absolve God of ultimate responsibility, if one was trying to accomplish such. That is, a man going to Hell would still be able to say, "Why, God, did you not substantiate the possible, feasible world in which I freely chose to become a Christian, rather than the one in which I did not?"

This is not really the main focus of this thread, which is about conflict (if any) between human will and God's planning (rather than between evil and God's planning, or between universal salvation and God's planning).

But there are possible answers to such objections for the Molinist. There might have been no situations in which the man chooses to become a Christian. Or if there were, it may be that no possible world has all people choosing to to be saved (similar to Plantinga's "transworld depravity" argument). That is, given the set of all people who have some situation in which they would choose to become a Christian, it might not be possible to instantiate a world in which all of those situations occur. These are possibilities for Molinism, but not for those who suppose that God controls what people choose.

Not to mention that God didn't have to save anyone. Even if God didn't save anyone, that doesn't make him responsible for human evil. Men chose to do evil. If the man hadn't already chosen to do evil, he would have no need of salvation. And God may justly punish the man.

And, as Phat points out, whatever situation God puts a person in, it's still the person's free choice, and not God's. God may prefer that the person in that situation would choose otherwise than the person does. In which case God would likely have chosen to instantiate a different, better world. Then the reason why that better world is not possible is the man's free choice, not God's choice.

[Zymologist]

I have never seen a Calvinist state that God is the author of sin. Can you give me an example of one?

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that RC Sproul Jr. has stated that, or something very similar.

[RBerman]

It seems to me that sort of question only holds any muster when asked with a Calvinist definition of 'free will', versus the LFW definition of free will. After all, the LFW definition always goes back to the person being the one who freely determined the choice -- rather than the choice being determined by something outside of their will (God, another person, human nature, etc.)

Molina taught that there are many possible and feasible universes, each containing a different combination of all the various choices made by LFW by all people during the course of their lives. God has chosen to instantiate one out of all those universes, the one in which each of us used LFW to make exactly the choices we have made. If God had chosen a different universe to instantiate, then we would have used our LFW to make other choices. So it seems to me that God is still "on the hook" as it were for the fact that the universe which he chose to instantiate is one in which certain people used their LFW to reject salvation, as opposed to the universe in which those people used their LFW to accept salvation. It is one step removed from Calvinism's understanding of God's sovereignty, but amounts to the same thing in the end.

[RBerman]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that RC Sproul Jr. has stated that, or something very similar.

I was looking for more of a citation than a vague recollection.

[RBerman]

This is not really the main focus of this thread, which is about conflict (if any) between human will and God's planning (rather than between evil and God's planning, or between universal salvation and God's planning).

Since I do not want to derail your thread, I am uncertain as to whether I should respond to the three paragraphs in your post that followed the one I quote here.

[Zymologist]

I was looking for more of a citation than a vague recollection.

Sorry, I should have known better.

[phat8594]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that RC Sproul Jr. has stated that, or something very similar.

That wouldn't surprise me, coming from the person who has said that 'Arminians are barely Christian' if at all -- and that Christ didn't experience death, but only his human body did --

(in fact, I think I know what you may be referring to....I think he did say something like that...)

RC Sproul, like John MacArthur, is one who

1) doesn't seem okay with 'gray areas' (areas not explicitly clear in the Bible -- or to human reasoning)
2) is not open to the possibility of other's thoughts even possibly being right (even slightly)

and therefore seems apt to make broad generalizations appear as fact, and often oversteps the bounds of orthodoxy & Christian charity in the name of 'truth' and 'having the correct answer' on everything.



But then again...perhaps I am the only one who sees it that way...?

[phat8594]

I was looking for more of a citation than a vague recollection.

I think it is in his book 'Almight Over All'

“I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that he created sin” (p. 54).

and this is because...

“It was [God’s] desire to make his wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures” (p. 57)

to be fair, I have not read the book, but saw this on the following Blog post:

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blo...reating-deity/


so take that for what it is...

[phat8594]

Molina taught that there are many possible and feasible universes, each containing a different combination of all the various choices made by LFW by all people during the course of their lives. God has chosen to instantiate one out of all those universes, the one in which each of us used LFW to make exactly the choices we have made. If God had chosen a different universe to instantiate, then we would have used our LFW to make other choices. So it seems to me that God is still "on the hook" as it were for the fact that the universe which he chose to instantiate is one in which certain people used their LFW to reject salvation, as opposed to the universe in which those people used their LFW to accept salvation. It is one step removed from Calvinism's understanding of God's sovereignty, but amounts to the same thing in the end.

The only 'hook' He would be on is the 'hook' of creating free creatures who had the ability to sin.

But with LFW, it was the person who ultimately determines the choice -- not God. So if that is the case, I am lost at how God is responsible for a choice not ultimately determined by Him?