Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Jesus' cry from the cross
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Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-28-2014, 09:15 PM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostHonestly, I do not know what you are talking about. I was addressing the posts following yours that were deviating from the opening post. I noted that your post was relevant in that you were addressing Obsidian's (mis)understanding of Jesus' cry from the cross. The posts following yours picked up on your comments and were going off into gender relations (and therefore deviating from the opening post). That was my criticism. I was hoping to circumvent further comments not addressing the opening post. There is no hint of "misogyny" present in any of my posts here. The "piggo" comment is thus completely unwarranted.
First, Piggo is my pet name for One Bad Pig. He started this thread. I was appealing to him as the thread starter to put a stop to the misogynistic comments, he is the only one who can.
Second, I was agreeing with you about Foud's misogynistic comment, I wasn't saying you were misogynistic. I quoted you in agreement with you.
I hope that clears things up. I am laughing so hard you think I called you Piggo.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Me? A misogynist? Never.
The same can be said of a guy. If he told a woman "You are definitely the most beautiful woman in the world" but then he saw another woman later that day and thought she was even more beautiful was he wrong in his first assessment or did he acquire some knowledge that he previously didn't have until he had seen the second woman?
Do you think this applies to Christ (obtaining a more/deeper realization) or did He always see the whole picture?Last edited by foudroyant; 03-28-2014, 09:20 PM.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostLOL!!!! Remonstrant, chill. OMG I am laughing so hard.
First, Piggo is my pet name for One Bad Pig. He started this thread. I was appealing to him as the thread starter to put a stop to the misogynistic comments, he is the only one who can.
Second, I was agreeing with you about Foud's misogynistic comment, I wasn't saying you were misogynistic. I quoted you in agreement with you.
I hope that clears things up. I am laughing so hard you think I called you Piggo.
For some reason, I confused this thread with mine. (I also have a thread active on the Theology 201 forum regarding Jesus and the cross.) The confusion was mine, I see. All is well. Thank you for helping to clear the air for me.
For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Is the Psalmist also lying/delusional/exaggerating when he says that God is far from helping him? Obviously not. It is literal truth.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostPsalm 22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Is the Psalmist also lying/delusional/exaggerating when he says that God is far from helping him? Obviously not. It is literal truth.
Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostObserve the 24th verse of Psalm 22 (ESV): "For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him."
It is one thing to feel utterly abandoned by God and quite another to claim it as an indubitable theological truth. Jesus would not by "lying" by vocalizing his distress on the cross. Surely you familiar with the Psalms and the Prophets. The language of forsakenness and abandonment is given voice to throughout numerous passages of the Hebrew Scriptures by suffering servants of Yahweh God. Are we to suppose Job, Habakkuk and Jeremiah were all liars in expressing their angst? It would be a mistake to read all their statements as infallible propositional truths in the first place.Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostI sure hope you are not that literal in your relationships. Hint: When a woman says, "You don't love me anymore" she is using a rhetorical emotional device. She isn't literally saying she literally believes you don't literally love her any more. Sheesh.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-28-2014, 09:48 PM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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I only quote the parts that I feel are important. And if there's only one part that's mentioned or only one part that's important, sometimes I don't quote at all. What do you feel like I'm not addressing?
Originally posted by RemonstrantOh well, I'll do it for you:
Originally posted by foudroyantWhat do you mean by "far" in your last sentence?
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I would also like to reiterate this point:
Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostI still do not see how you are able to cling onto a single verse (namely Jesus' utterance of Psalm 22:1) in order to substantiate your claim that the Father literally abandoned the Son on the cross. . . .For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Also in the social world where Jesus grew up, a grown man was expected to be silent when experiencing pain and suffering (it was from their view of machismo and masculinity) - and yet, they seemed permitted some kind of groaning to signify their innocence. To wit, Richard Rohrbaugh's "Death with Honor: The Mediterranean Style of Death of Jesus in Mark":
Recognizing the influence of the Isaian Servant of Yahweh songs on the formation of the Passion narratives, traditional interpreters have tended to follow Isa 53:7 literally:
&dquo;He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not
his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a
sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his
mouth&dquo; (see Acts 8:32-35). Suffering in silence is honorable
for a Mediterranean man, but the matter is perhaps more
complex than a simple reading of that text might suggest.
People who suffered innocently yet poured out their
laments in psalms curiously described themselves as mute:
&dquo;like a dumb man who does not open his mouth&dquo; (Ps
38:13-14; 39:10). Even while foregoing the opportunity to
offer riposte to the enemies’ challenges (Ps 38:14), one
victim does not hesitate to groan (Ps 38:8) and sigh (Ps 38:9)
and pray (very likely aloud, Ps 38:16). Another victim
recognizes that silent endurance is the proper response to
God’s decree of suffering (Ps 39:9-11; see also Lam
3:28-30); yet the resolve to keep silent is difficult to keep
(Ps 39:2), and he prays (presumably) aloud to God. It would
seem that vocal prayer is an acceptable element of suffering
in silence. (&dquo;Mental&dquo; prayer in the ancient world was probably as anomalous as &dquo;silent&dquo; reading.) The victim hopes to
stir God to action and perhaps even to work a change of
opinion among the witnesses to this shameful suffering of an
innocent person. This at least seems to be the conviction
among early Christians (see 1 Pet 2:19-25; 3:9-17).
Moreover, the impressive story of the martyrdom of the
aged Eleazar (2 Macc 6) recounts that he preferred &dquo;death
with honor rather than life with pollution&dquo; (6:19). He refused to deceive and mislead young witnesses to his ordeal
and thereby &dquo;disgrace and defile my old age&dquo; (6:24). As he
died, he groaned aloud and said for all to hear that he was
glad to suffer because he feared (= respected) God (6:30).
Eleazar’s example suggests that suffering in silence does not
forbid the victim from speaking respectfully about God or
expressing an honorable view of one’s tragic end.
The tale of the seven brothers who died remaining
obedient to the Law recounts that each of them had something significant and honorably impressive to announce
before dying. Neither the threat nor the experience of violent torture prompted any of them to complain (2 Macc 7).
To suffer in silence excludes complaints or, in the honor
perspective, insulting challenges like that of the thief crucified with Jesus (Luke 23:9).
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI already explained that I think Psalm 22:24 is a quotation, and a prediction of the future. Do you want me to exegete the entirety of Job, Habakkuk, and Jeremiah? I don't think those people were lying at all. God definitely abandoned Job, for the most part. [Emphasis added.]For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostTemporarily, yesFor Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostTemporarily, yesFor Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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