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Jesus' cry from the cross

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
    Piggo, as thread starter, please put an end to the misogynistic insertion. [Emphasis added.]
    Honestly, I do not know what you are talking about. I was addressing the posts following yours that were deviating from the opening post. I noted that your post was relevant in that you were addressing Obsidian's (mis)understanding of Jesus' cry from the cross. The posts following yours picked up on your comments and were going off into gender relations (and therefore deviating from the opening post). That was my criticism. I was hoping to circumvent further comments not specifically addressing the opening post. There is no hint of "misogyny" present in any of my posts here. The "piggo" comment is thus completely unwarranted.
    Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-28-2014, 10:15 PM.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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    • #32
      Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
      Honestly, I do not know what you are talking about. I was addressing the posts following yours that were deviating from the opening post. I noted that your post was relevant in that you were addressing Obsidian's (mis)understanding of Jesus' cry from the cross. The posts following yours picked up on your comments and were going off into gender relations (and therefore deviating from the opening post). That was my criticism. I was hoping to circumvent further comments not addressing the opening post. There is no hint of "misogyny" present in any of my posts here. The "piggo" comment is thus completely unwarranted.
      LOL!!!! Remonstrant, chill. OMG I am laughing so hard.

      First, Piggo is my pet name for One Bad Pig. He started this thread. I was appealing to him as the thread starter to put a stop to the misogynistic comments, he is the only one who can.

      Second, I was agreeing with you about Foud's misogynistic comment, I wasn't saying you were misogynistic. I quoted you in agreement with you.

      I hope that clears things up. I am laughing so hard you think I called you Piggo.
      The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

      sigpic

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      • #33
        Me? A misogynist? Never.
        The same can be said of a guy. If he told a woman "You are definitely the most beautiful woman in the world" but then he saw another woman later that day and thought she was even more beautiful was he wrong in his first assessment or did he acquire some knowledge that he previously didn't have until he had seen the second woman?
        Do you think this applies to Christ (obtaining a more/deeper realization) or did He always see the whole picture?
        Last edited by foudroyant; 03-28-2014, 10:20 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
          LOL!!!! Remonstrant, chill. OMG I am laughing so hard.

          First, Piggo is my pet name for One Bad Pig. He started this thread. I was appealing to him as the thread starter to put a stop to the misogynistic comments, he is the only one who can.

          Second, I was agreeing with you about Foud's misogynistic comment, I wasn't saying you were misogynistic. I quoted you in agreement with you.

          I hope that clears things up. I am laughing so hard you think I called you Piggo.
          ...

          For some reason, I confused this thread with mine. (I also have a thread active on the Theology 201 forum regarding Jesus and the cross.) The confusion was mine, I see. All is well. Thank you for helping to clear the air for me.

          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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          • #35
            Psalm 22:1
            My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

            Is the Psalmist also lying/delusional/exaggerating when he says that God is far from helping him? Obviously not. It is literal truth.

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            • #36
              Hello Obsidian,

              What do you mean by "far" in your last sentence?

              Thanks

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                Psalm 22:1
                My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

                Is the Psalmist also lying/delusional/exaggerating when he says that God is far from helping him? Obviously not. It is literal truth.
                This was already addressed by DDW and I. Why do you persist in ignoring our posts as if your concerns haven't been addressed? (I have interacted with you before and this appears to be an irritating habit of yours, Obsidian.)

                Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                Observe the 24th verse of Psalm 22 (ESV): "For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him."

                It is one thing to feel utterly abandoned by God and quite another to claim it as an indubitable theological truth. Jesus would not by "lying" by vocalizing his distress on the cross. Surely you familiar with the Psalms and the Prophets. The language of forsakenness and abandonment is given voice to throughout numerous passages of the Hebrew Scriptures by suffering servants of Yahweh God. Are we to suppose Job, Habakkuk and Jeremiah were all liars in expressing their angst? It would be a mistake to read all their statements as infallible propositional truths in the first place.
                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                I sure hope you are not that literal in your relationships. Hint: When a woman says, "You don't love me anymore" she is using a rhetorical emotional device. She isn't literally saying she literally believes you don't literally love her any more. Sheesh.
                Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-28-2014, 10:48 PM.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                • #38
                  I only quote the parts that I feel are important. And if there's only one part that's mentioned or only one part that's important, sometimes I don't quote at all. What do you feel like I'm not addressing?

                  Originally posted by Remonstrant
                  Oh well, I'll do it for you:
                  I already explained that I think Psalm 22:24 is a quotation, and a prediction of the future. Do you want me to exegete the entirety of Job, Habakkuk, and Jeremiah? I don't think those people were lying at all. God definitely abandoned Job, for the most part.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant
                  What do you mean by "far" in your last sentence?
                  I mean that God is not helping David/Jesus. If God were helping David, he wouldn't have to write a whole song about getting God to help him. In the context of Jesus, I guess "far" means that God is about 72 hours from helping him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I would also like to reiterate this point:

                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    I still do not see how you are able to cling onto a single verse (namely Jesus' utterance of Psalm 22:1) in order to substantiate your claim that the Father literally abandoned the Son on the cross. . . .
                    Your position is dangling by a very thin thread.
                    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Also in the social world where Jesus grew up, a grown man was expected to be silent when experiencing pain and suffering (it was from their view of machismo and masculinity) - and yet, they seemed permitted some kind of groaning to signify their innocence. To wit, Richard Rohrbaugh's "Death with Honor: The Mediterranean Style of Death of Jesus in Mark":

                      Recognizing the influence of the Isaian Servant of Yahweh songs on the formation of the Passion narratives, traditional interpreters have tended to follow Isa 53:7 literally:
                      &dquo;He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not
                      his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a
                      sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his
                      mouth&dquo; (see Acts 8:32-35). Suffering in silence is honorable
                      for a Mediterranean man, but the matter is perhaps more
                      complex than a simple reading of that text might suggest.
                      People who suffered innocently yet poured out their
                      laments in psalms curiously described themselves as mute:
                      &dquo;like a dumb man who does not open his mouth&dquo; (Ps
                      38:13-14; 39:10). Even while foregoing the opportunity to
                      offer riposte to the enemies’ challenges (Ps 38:14), one
                      victim does not hesitate to groan (Ps 38:8) and sigh (Ps 38:9)
                      and pray (very likely aloud, Ps 38:16). Another victim
                      recognizes that silent endurance is the proper response to
                      God’s decree of suffering (Ps 39:9-11; see also Lam
                      3:28-30); yet the resolve to keep silent is difficult to keep
                      (Ps 39:2), and he prays (presumably) aloud to God. It would
                      seem that vocal prayer is an acceptable element of suffering
                      in silence. (&dquo;Mental&dquo; prayer in the ancient world was probably as anomalous as &dquo;silent&dquo; reading.) The victim hopes to
                      stir God to action and perhaps even to work a change of
                      opinion among the witnesses to this shameful suffering of an
                      innocent person. This at least seems to be the conviction
                      among early Christians (see 1 Pet 2:19-25; 3:9-17).
                      Moreover, the impressive story of the martyrdom of the
                      aged Eleazar (2 Macc 6) recounts that he preferred &dquo;death
                      with honor rather than life with pollution&dquo; (6:19). He refused to deceive and mislead young witnesses to his ordeal
                      and thereby &dquo;disgrace and defile my old age&dquo; (6:24). As he
                      died, he groaned aloud and said for all to hear that he was
                      glad to suffer because he feared (= respected) God (6:30).
                      Eleazar’s example suggests that suffering in silence does not
                      forbid the victim from speaking respectfully about God or
                      expressing an honorable view of one’s tragic end.
                      The tale of the seven brothers who died remaining
                      obedient to the Law recounts that each of them had something significant and honorably impressive to announce
                      before dying. Neither the threat nor the experience of violent torture prompted any of them to complain (2 Macc 7).
                      To suffer in silence excludes complaints or, in the honor
                      perspective, insulting challenges like that of the thief crucified with Jesus (Luke 23:9).

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                      • #41
                        Ugh, the formatting got massacred in the copy-and-paste.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          I already explained that I think Psalm 22:24 is a quotation, and a prediction of the future. Do you want me to exegete the entirety of Job, Habakkuk, and Jeremiah? I don't think those people were lying at all. God definitely abandoned Job, for the most part. [Emphasis added.]
                          In your estimation, then, it would appear that, in your conception of Yahweh God, he is prone to abandoning his most faithful servants frequently, yes? Think of what you're saying, my friend.
                          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                          • #43
                            Temporarily, yes

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              Temporarily, yes
                              There you go again without the quotes! This is not a good habit of yours, Obsidian.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                Temporarily, yes
                                Do you believe God is still prone to forsaking his people today? Or is that only something Yahweh was apt to do under the Sinaitic covenant?
                                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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