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Jesus' cry from the cross

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  • Jesus' cry from the cross

    Hedrick posted this in another thread which I'm not really interested in following:

    Originally posted by hedrick View Post
    I think the Gospels suggest that whatever certainty Jesus had about God to some extent was obscured during this period. While there are other ways to explain it, I think his cry from the cross that God had abandoned him was real, that as the person taking the consequences of our sins, he was for a time separated from the consciousness of God. I understand that this is paradoxical for someone who is the incarnation of God, but our understanding of what it meant for Jesus to be identified with God needs to be based on the Biblical account.
    This is not a literal cry of abandonment. It is a reference, by someone who is in no position to make a long discourse, to Psalm 22, which opens with the words. Far from being a cry of abandonment, it is an attestation of prophecy fulfilled.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  • #2
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Hedrick posted this in another thread which I'm not really interested in following:



    This is not a literal cry of abandonment. It is a reference, by someone who is in no position to make a long discourse, to Psalm 22, which opens with the words. Far from being a cry of abandonment, it is an attestation of prophecy fulfilled.
    Must it necessarily be one or the other. Can it not be, in some sense, both?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #3
      No. I think this is one place where many have it wrong, and are being too literal. Its referencing Psalm 22. The psalms are taught to be cried out in times of need pain or prayer for the Jews. It would not have been uncommon to hear a psalm in time of great pain. But that it was this specific psalm is significant.
      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
      George Bernard Shaw

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
        No. I think this is one place where many have it wrong, and are being too literal. Its referencing Psalm 22. The psalms are taught to be cried out in times of need pain or prayer for the Jews. It would not have been uncommon to hear a psalm in time of great pain. But that it was this specific psalm is significant.
        I agree! Doesn't Psalm 22 also have a description that sounds like a crucifixion?
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Must it necessarily be one or the other. Can it not be, in some sense, both?
          I think Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to know He would never be abandoned.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I think Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to know He would never be abandoned.
            Of course He would.... Why wouldn't He?
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I think Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to know He would never be abandoned.
              An amen here.
              3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)

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              • #8
                I think Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to know He would never be abandoned.
                He was abandoned. It's just that the abandonment was not permanent.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  He was abandoned. It's just that the abandonment was not permanent.
                  It is not proper to say that God abandoned God. This is, in fact, what one is insinuating when one makes the rather daring claim that the Father literally abandoned the Son in some way at Golgotha. The Father and the Son are/were one in purpose throughout Jesus' incarnation, his death on the cross, the resurrection, ascension, glorification, and before the foundation of the world. This unity was never broken. The Father was with Jesus even during his darkest time. Jesus was vindicated as Lord and Messiah by being raised from the dead by the Father. Jesus always did what pleased the Father and the Father never disapproved of his Son.

                  It is, unfortunately, not uncommon to hear evangelical preachers proclaim that the Father turned his back on Jesus when he was on the cross. This couldn't be further from the truth.
                  Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-28-2014, 06:54 PM.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    I agree! Doesn't Psalm 22 also have a description that sounds like a crucifixion?
                    I had heard that before. After reading Psalm 22, I'm inclined to agree with the position.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I think Jesus knew the scriptures well enough to know He would never be abandoned.
                      Let me ask it this way. When Jesus asked, in Mark's gospel, that this cup be removed from him, did Mark think that Jesus was sincere? Or was he just kidding.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                      • #12
                        Who would WANT to die a shameful death?
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                          It is not proper to say that God abandoned God. This is, in fact, what one is insinuating when one makes the rather daring claim that the Father literally abandoned the Son in some way at Golgotha. The Father and the Son are/were one in purpose throughout Jesus' incarnation, his death on the cross, the resurrection, ascension, glorification, and before the foundation of the world. This unity was never broken. The Father was with Jesus even during his darkest time. Jesus was vindicated as Lord and Messiah by being raised from the dead by the Father. Jesus always did what pleased the Father and the Father never disapproved of his Son.

                          It is, unfortunately, not uncommon to hear evangelical preachers proclaim that the Father turned his back on Jesus when he was on the cross. This couldn't be further from the truth.
                          Amen..(I wonder when we can actually start doing REAL Amens again...)
                          "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
                          -Unknown

                          "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


                          I find that evolution is the best proof of God.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Remonstrant
                            It is, unfortunately, not uncommon to hear evangelical preachers proclaim that the Father turned his back on Jesus when he was on the cross. This couldn't be further from the truth.
                            It pretty much makes both Jesus and David out to be liars if you say that they were not abandoned at least temporarily.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              It pretty much makes both Jesus and David out to be liars if you say that they were not abandoned at least temporarily.
                              You will need to establish this bold claim of yours.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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