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Kenosis- Split from Pop preachers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Sad innit - no examination of the claims, just deciding that they are either correct or incorrect based on the identity of the speaker/author. Scant few do otherwise.
    To some extent it's understandable. If you know by observation that a preacher has made dozen of screwball claims, and that the preacher's style is to speak off-the-cuff, your first pass is likely to be to assume the preacher goofed again.

    I don't like it when the "heresy hunters" cherry-pick the worst quotes and give them the worst possible interpretation. And I don't like it when they take a dozen different problematic quotes from a dozen different goofballs, and then claim ALL of them believe ALL the things quoted.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

      To some extent it's understandable. If you know by observation that a preacher has made dozen of screwball claims, and that the preacher's style is to speak off-the-cuff, your first pass is likely to be to assume the preacher goofed again.

      I don't like it when the "heresy hunters" cherry-pick the worst quotes and give them the worst possible interpretation. And I don't like it when they take a dozen different problematic quotes from a dozen different goofballs, and then claim ALL of them believe ALL the things quoted.
      That kind of thing says more about the critics than it does about the criticised IMO.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        Stumbled across this by Providential happenstance. It's a relevant clip of the late Gordon Fee, probably from around 40 years ago, teaching his college students.

        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Stumbled across this by Providential happenstance. It's a relevant clip of the late Gordon Fee, probably from around 40 years ago, teaching his college students.

          The clip is very interesting indeed. It comes as something of a surprise to see that kind of exposition from a notable academic.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Stumbled across this by Providential happenstance. It's a relevant clip of the late Gordon Fee, probably from around 40 years ago, teaching his college students.

            His daughter, posted to YouTube a little over 2 years ago. Particularly notable around the 17:30 mark.

            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

              His daughter, posted to YouTube a little over 2 years ago. Particularly notable around the 17:30 mark.

              There are some reservations, but if I was looking for a church pastor, she'd definitely make the second interview.
              Last edited by tabibito; 07-05-2023, 03:46 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                There are some reservations, but if I was looking for a church pastor, she'd definitely make the second interview.
                Personally, I'd give her a point or two just for the "peeing behind the bushes" line.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #23
                  NorrinRadd Am I reading John 14:1 correctly?
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    Yeah, Jesse's a wackadoodle, but I'm afraid I can't take seriously every belch of "heresy!" from a guy who is himself heterodox and who AFAICT thinks every version of kenosis theology is automatically heretical.
                    Kenosis has some problems. For instance, if Christ "set aside" his omnipotence....what does that mean? Is Christ omnipotent now, after his death and resurrection? If yes, then it would seem he never really set aside his omnipotence, because he had the ability to take it up again. If one can take up the ability again at will, then one never really lacked the ability to do whatever was needful. Which means, one was really still omnipotent the whole time.
                    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by myth View Post
                      Kenosis has some problems. For instance, if Christ "set aside" his omnipotence....what does that mean?
                      It would mean that he stopped being God. God being what Logos had been and is, not who, there is no difficulty with ceasing to exist as God. YHVH being who he was, not what, he did not cease to exist as YHVH. The Trinity was preserved.

                      Is Christ omnipotent now, after his death and resurrection?
                      Yes

                      If yes, then it would seem he never really set aside his omnipotence, because he had the ability to take it up again. If one can take up the ability again at will, then one never really lacked the ability to do whatever was needful. Which means, one was really still omnipotent the whole time.
                      At will? - nothing indicates that, having become for a time lesser than the angels, he had the ability to take up being God during that time.

                      Similarly, for a time, Princess Abe gave up what she was, but she remained who she was. When she abdicated as regnant empress of Japan, she no longer was empress regnant. She lay aside the trappings and prerogatives of an emperor, becoming lesser and taking on a lower status.That she later resumed the throne meant that she had become empress again, and had taken up the trappings and prerogatives of an emperor.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 09-12-2023, 01:45 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by myth View Post

                        Kenosis has some problems. For instance, if Christ "set aside" his omnipotence....what does that mean? Is Christ omnipotent now, after his death and resurrection? If yes, then it would seem he never really set aside his omnipotence, because he had the ability to take it up again. If one can take up the ability again at will, then one never really lacked the ability to do whatever was needful. Which means, one was really still omnipotent the whole time.
                        There are versions of kenosis that hold that Jesus laid aside His divinity in the sense of voluntarily allowing those aspects of Himself to become dormant, *loosely* analogous to the way a person's abilities to walk, talk, etc. are suspended while the person is asleep. The abilities are still there, but the person does not have voluntary access.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          NorrinRadd Am I reading John 14:1 correctly?
                          Interesting. Does John 20:17 make it even more interesting?
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                            Interesting. Does John 20:17 make it even more interesting?
                            The implications of that verse should be readily apparent.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              It would mean that he stopped being God. God being what Logos had been and is, not who, there is no difficulty with ceasing to exist as God. YHVH being who he was, not what, he did not cease to exist as YHVH. The Trinity was preserved.


                              Yes


                              At will? - nothing indicates that, having become for a time lesser than the angels, he had the ability to take up being God during that time.

                              Similarly, for a time, Princess Abe gave up what she was, but she remained who she was. When she abdicated as regnant empress of Japan, she no longer was empress regnant. She lay aside the trappings and prerogatives of an emperor, becoming lesser and taking on a lower status.That she later resumed the throne meant that she had become empress again, and had taken up the trappings and prerogatives of an emperor.
                              Seems to me that God ceasing to be God isn't possible, and I've never seen anything in Scripture that would support that idea. Similarly, if one loses ones omnipotence and has it again afterwards, completely absent of one's will, that would imply that he lost omnipotence against his will. Which means he wasn't ever really omnipotent to begin with, I'd say.
                              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by myth View Post

                                Seems to me that God ceasing to be God isn't possible, and I've never seen anything in Scripture that would support that idea. Similarly, if one loses ones omnipotence and has it again afterwards, completely absent of one's will, that would imply that he lost omnipotence against his will. Which means he wasn't ever really omnipotent to begin with, I'd say.
                                More interesting issues are how God can become lesser than the angels (Hebrews 2:9), how Logos could give up equality with God but remain God (Philippians 2:6-7), and how Jesus could be made in every way the same as his brothers (Hebrews 2:17) if he remained God. Then too, there is the matter of his being termed "a man attested by God ... by the signs and wonders that God performed through him" (Acts 2:22), and the list continues.

                                Could Yahweh give up being God? According to the Jews, "God" is the office that Yahweh holds. Could the emperor abdicate, the company (or nation's) president resign?

                                Last edited by tabibito; 09-18-2023, 07:39 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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