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Roger Olson "Against Cessationism"

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  • Roger Olson "Against Cessationism"

    Patheos article here.


    He hasn't posted my Comment yet. No guarantee he will.


    Strikingly polemical and confrontational for a scholar of his stature. Most such scholars of similar beliefs take a more irenic and conciliatory approach with their opponents.

    I basically agree with his theology. I'm pondering whether I agree with his approach here.


    So what, you ask, is “cessationism?” It is the belief that at least the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 ceased when the Bible was completed. For most cessationists, those include especially speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, healing, miracles and possibly, at least for some, words of knowledge and words of wisdom.

    The alternative to cessationism is continuationism. As the word implies, continuationism is the beliefs that ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament are still available, from the Holy Spirit, to Christians today and ought to be used, “manifested,” in churches “decently and in order” (as Paul commanded in 1 Corinthians 14).

    I will go so far as to say that cessationism is at least heterodox and unbiblical. Nowhere does the Bible point to it.

    ...

    I am a continuationist without any specific Pentecostal or charismatic identity. And I believe cessationism is profoundly mistaken and evangelical leaders ought to call it that.

    This is not just a matter of differing opinions. Cessationism is wrong and ought to cease. I am a cessationist about cessationism. I believe a Christian church or denomination should take an “open” view toward the “sign gifts” today, neither opposing them nor promoting them as necessary. I believe the “sign gifts” should function in individuals’ lives and in small groups. I don’t oppose their manifestation in public worship services, but it seems to me that in Paul’s wrestling with this in 1 Corinthians 14 we can see that he was nervous about that and wanted to put limits to it.

    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

  • #2
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Patheos article here.


    He hasn't posted my Comment yet. No guarantee he will.


    Strikingly polemical and confrontational for a scholar of his stature. Most such scholars of similar beliefs take a more irenic and conciliatory approach with their opponents.

    I basically agree with his theology. I'm pondering whether I agree with his approach here.


    So what, you ask, is “cessationism?” It is the belief that at least the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 ceased when the Bible was completed. For most cessationists, those include especially speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, healing, miracles and possibly, at least for some, words of knowledge and words of wisdom.

    The alternative to cessationism is continuationism. As the word implies, continuationism is the beliefs that ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament are still available, from the Holy Spirit, to Christians today and ought to be used, “manifested,” in churches “decently and in order” (as Paul commanded in 1 Corinthians 14).

    I will go so far as to say that cessationism is at least heterodox and unbiblical. Nowhere does the Bible point to it.

    ...

    I am a continuationist without any specific Pentecostal or charismatic identity. And I believe cessationism is profoundly mistaken and evangelical leaders ought to call it that.

    This is not just a matter of differing opinions. Cessationism is wrong and ought to cease. I am a cessationist about cessationism. I believe a Christian church or denomination should take an “open” view toward the “sign gifts” today, neither opposing them nor promoting them as necessary. I believe the “sign gifts” should function in individuals’ lives and in small groups. I don’t oppose their manifestation in public worship services, but it seems to me that in Paul’s wrestling with this in 1 Corinthians 14 we can see that he was nervous about that and wanted to put limits to it.
    I would agree.

    Cessationism seems to have been dreamt up to explain why miracles are so seldom in evidence.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      I would agree.

      Cessationism seems to have been dreamt up to explain why miracles are so seldom in evidence.
      I agree. Unfortunately, miracles are not as common as some ministries would have you believe. The Bible is a record of God's dealings therefore miracles are common in it. When you look at the time span covered by the Bible, you realize how infrequent they are in world history.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

        I agree. Unfortunately, miracles are not as common as some ministries would have you believe. The Bible is a record of God's dealings therefore miracles are common in it. When you look at the time span covered by the Bible, you realize how infrequent they are in world history.
        Even Jesus said that miracles had been rare events under the old covenant, but close reading of the New Testament shows they should be flowing like water under the new covenant - or at least, daily events. Close reading also indicates that a lack of miracles has only primary cause - lack of commitment on the believers' part.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

          I agree. Unfortunately, miracles are not as common as some ministries would have you believe. The Bible is a record of God's dealings therefore miracles are common in it. When you look at the time span covered by the Bible, you realize how infrequent they are in world history.
          Exactly. With the exception of Jesus' time, miracles were typically few and far between. Just because some might be a page or two apart doesn't mean that they happened in quick order.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            As a cessationist, I do not believe that miracles do not happen.

            I just believe that they are not brought about by any person, but are strictly in the hands of a sovereign God. Who never stops performing miracles. First and foremost of them is when someone comes to Him in repentance and receives forgiveness of sin.

            The WoF and their ilk are not performing miracles. If they were, there would be no sick people in hospitals; people who lost a limb would receive a new one; the blind would see and the deaf would hear and the mute would speak.

            Natural disasters would never happen. Covid would have disappeared immediately under the mighty breath of Kenneth Copeland. The daughter of a congregant of Bill Johnson's church would have risen from the dead. Bill Johnson would have prevented his own wife from dying of cancer.

            Todd Bentley wouldn't have had to kick an old lady in the face with his biker boot in order to "heal" her. Todd White wouldn't have to work his charlatan act of "lengthening legs", he would have actually been able to do it for those who needed it done.

            God can do all those things, and I do not deny that He does. People do no miracles at all.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              As a cessationist, I do not believe that miracles do not happen.

              I just believe that they are not brought about by any person, but are strictly in the hands of a sovereign God. Who never stops performing miracles. First and foremost of them is when someone comes to Him in repentance and receives forgiveness of sin.

              The WoF and their ilk are not performing miracles. If they were, there would be no sick people in hospitals; people who lost a limb would receive a new one; the blind would see and the deaf would hear and the mute would speak.

              Natural disasters would never happen. Covid would have disappeared immediately under the mighty breath of Kenneth Copeland. The daughter of a congregant of Bill Johnson's church would have risen from the dead. Bill Johnson would have prevented his own wife from dying of cancer.

              Todd Bentley wouldn't have had to kick an old lady in the face with his biker boot in order to "heal" her. Todd White wouldn't have to work his charlatan act of "lengthening legs", he would have actually been able to do it for those who needed it done.

              God can do all those things, and I do not deny that He does. People do no miracles at all.
              Entirely correct. However, the question is not "what is?" but "what should be?"
              In Paul's time, miracles were as common as they had been in the time of Jesus of Nazareth ... and the world is no less in need of the palpable presence of God now than it was then.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Entirely correct. However, the question is not "what is?" but "what should be?"
                In Paul's time, miracles were as common as they had been in the time of Jesus of Nazareth ... and the world is no less in need of the palpable presence of God now than it was then.
                And after the first century, when all the apostles had died, there were no genuine miracles. Hence, the whole cessationist thingy.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                  And after the first century, when all the apostles had died, there were no genuine miracles. Hence, the whole cessationist thingy.
                  Actually, right up until Gregory Thaumaturge's time (late third century) if accounts are to be believed, with miracles tapering off fairly quickly.

                  The what is reasonably clear - it is the why that is significant.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Isn't there a scholarly book compiling mirace reports? Course, even if every account were truly a miracle, it's still statistically very rare. Don't know why Gid occasionally intervenes when He usually works more subtly. God will do what He will, and I'm not going to try and stuff Him into a box. The WOF heretics are quacks though.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Acts 2:39 For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is for you and your children and for all who are far away [including the Gentiles], as many as the Lord our God calls to Himself.”

                      When we become born again we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and should therefore be displaying (for lack of a better word) the attributes of the Holy Spirit who will always be revealing Jesus.
                      Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever.

                      I think it all has to do with whether a believer in Jesus Christ believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit which will make them either a cessationist or a continuationist.

                      There are many instructions for the church which include how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to operate. The congregation of believers were operating in the gifts too not only the apostles and this operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are never shown to come to an end, only when the Perfect has come which is the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming and not the completion of the Bible as I understand it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've also heard somewhere that the spritual gifts are like training wheels, so more mature Christians wouldn't need them anymore.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          I've also heard somewhere that the spritual gifts are like training wheels, so more mature Christians wouldn't need them anymore.
                          That's kind of an odd interpretation imo. Teaching is listed as one of the gifts and elsewhere Paul chides some of the Christians (maybe those in Corinth?) that although they have been believers for long enough to be teachers, they still need the basics fed to them. I would think teaching would be for mature Christians.
                          We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                            That's kind of an odd interpretation imo. Teaching is listed as one of the gifts and elsewhere Paul chides some of the Christians (maybe those in Corinth?) that although they have been believers for long enough to be teachers, they still need the basics fed to them. I would think teaching would be for mature Christians.
                            Think it's more that the distinction between the gift and your personality gets blurred or something. When it comes to secondary issues, I'm in the don't be dogmatic and we can all get fact checks from God later camp. Sure, at that point, it would be merely academic, but He might be more likely to answer a question that comes from a pure yearning to learn and not one upmanship.
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              I would agree.

                              Cessationism seems to have been dreamt up to explain why miracles are so seldom in evidence.
                              I think "Positive Confession" came about the same way. In the absence of actual, observable healings and works of power, "confess" them.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment

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