Roger Olson "Against Cessationism"

[mossrose]

Personally, I have seen more legitimate miracles happen first hand in the past 5-10 years than I did for the previous 30 years (like deaf people hearing, the lame walking, cancer disappearing, devils being cast out and people set free, broken limbs being healed in front of my eyes, etc). The question I had, of course, is why do I see more now than I did before? The best answer I have is that I am surrounded by people who will pray and believe for them. People can tell me all day long that the gifts have ceased or that God isn't real -- but the reality is I can't unsee what I have seen with my own two eyes. There is no other good explanation, other than: God is real, and He still performs miracles through His people.

Documentation, please, names and the attestation of qualified and legitimate doctors. Your eyewitness accounts don't mean anything to me, sorry.

[phat8594]

Documentation, please, names and the attestation of qualified and legitimate doctors. Your eyewitness accounts don't mean anything to me, sorry.

That is totally your right and your prerogative. Though I am curious if eyewitness accounts aren't sufficient for you, why trust the gospels?


What I have often found is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, they will always find a reason not to. So when a radiology report shows cancer one week, and no cancer the next -- the reports are then questioned, or the doctors. It is as if no amount of evidence will suffice -- because at the end of the day the miraculous cannot happen and there has to be some naturalistic reason as to why it really didn't happen or something else happened (other than God) that caused the healing.

[mossrose]

That is totally your right and your prerogative. Though I am curious if eyewitness accounts aren't sufficient for you, why trust the gospels?

I trust the gospels because they are the inspired Word of God. Your word, as much as I think you believe what you think you saw, is not. And the gospels fit with the rest of scripture. What you think you saw does not.

What I have often found is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, they will always find a reason not to. So when a radiology report shows cancer one week, and no cancer the next -- the reports are then questioned, or the doctors. It is as if no amount of evidence will suffice -- because at the end of the day the miraculous cannot happen and there has to be some naturalistic reason as to why it really didn't happen or something else happened (other than God) that caused the healing.

An xray showing cancer one week and none the next is evidence that can be examined and verified by physicians. Your account can not, obviously, or you would have provided such.

As I said earlier in this thread, in fact in your quote of my comments, I do not discount that God can and does perform miracles today. But GOD does it. Not man, and certainly not one single one of the WoF bunch. There is no point in repeating myself......again.....since, as you said, no amount of evidence, especially that in God's Word will be enough for you to change your mind. And I rest on His revelation given to us in that Word.

I had finished with this thread long ago until you quoted me. I am finished with it again. You can all carry on believing what you want regardless of what scripture says.

[Esther]

This post on cessationism caught my eye again.

Yesterday my elderly Mom ventured out to attend a Bible study at Christ Church. She has been battling to find a place to fellowship. She was so excited to go and I couldn't wait to hear how wonderful it was for her to be with other believers studying the Word of God.

How very disheartening to hear that the Bible Study conducted by the pastor and well attended by both men and women, consisted mostly of the pastor disparaging other denominations and not once was the Bible opened and read from during the hour of smug disdain for other denominations.

My mother's input was a one-liner of how blessed we are to have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to guide us in this life. She scores 10 out of 10 not only because she is my Mom but because she had a positive input and the right attitude which no one even really amened.
She told me they were the poorer for not acknowledging the Holy Spirit and that we should pray for them.

[phat8594]

I trust the gospels because they are the inspired Word of God. Your word, as much as I think you believe what you think you saw, is not. And the gospels fit with the rest of scripture. What you think you saw does not.

And the gospels, at the same time are eye witness accounts. And many of the new believers, believed those eye-witness accounts prior to NT. There is also, of course ,many of the time who discounted and questioned those accounts. (to be clear, not saying we should 100% believe people always, but we should be open to hearing testimony in light of scripture)

Though, on another point....I am not sure how

having a friend be prayed for and having their hearing restored doesn't fit with scripture?

Or how another friend who had stage 4 breast cancer be prayed for and somehow the cancer gone the next week doesn't fit with scripture.

Or how another friend went from kidney failure (in the hospital) to perfectly functioning kidneys after prayer. (test showing the morning after)

(to name just a few) -- and all cases, glory was given to God -- our healer.

As I said earlier in this thread, in fact in your quote of my comments, I do not discount that God can and does perform miracles today. But GOD does it. Not man, and certainly not one single one of the WoF bunch. There is no point in repeating myself......again.....since, as you said, no amount of evidence, especially that in God's Word will be enough for you to change your mind. And I rest on His revelation given to us in that Word.

Ironically, it was through deep study of the Bible that led me to be open to the miraculous. In fact, I remember taking a class by one of the more prominent scholars today (heavily involved in the translations), who frankly told us "I was raised as a cessationist, but as I got into scholarship and translating the NT I learned that cessationism just isn't there in the NT...as in anywhere."

[phat8594]

This post on cessationism caught my eye again.

Yesterday my elderly Mom ventured out to attend a Bible study at Christ Church. She has been battling to find a place to fellowship. She was so excited to go and I couldn't wait to hear how wonderful it was for her to be with other believers studying the Word of God.

How very disheartening to hear that the Bible Study conducted by the pastor and well attended by both men and women, consisted mostly of the pastor disparaging other denominations and not once was the Bible opened and read from during the hour of smug disdain for other denominations.

My mother's input was a one-liner of how blessed we are to have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to guide us in this life. She scores 10 out of 10 not only because she is my Mom but because she had a positive input and the right attitude which no one even really amened.
She told me they were the poorer for not acknowledging the Holy Spirit and that we should pray for them.

Regrettably, I was once in the camp of constantly criticizing other Christians -- especially those who were more on the Charismatic side of things. I called them Charismaniacs because what I saw (from other people criticizing) was they seemed like absolute crack pots (and to be sure, there are definitely some crack pots out there).

Though, it was on a serious missions trip to Bolivia where I was confronted with the fact that all my Bible knowledge did me no good when it came to confronting the demonic. There is something about a young child (girl) who doesn't speak English, that is all of a sudden speaking in a mans voice in English about owning the body of the girl and trying to scare people from sharing the gospel that will get you pucker a little bit (and question your anti-charismatic views ))..oh my word was I scared! And my pride of my knowledge regarding the Bible was shattered in an instant.

It was then that I repented and began the journey of trusting God with all 'that spiritual stuff' that was beyond the secular scientific world and book knowledge that I was so comfortable in. And TBH, nothing has been more humbling and taught me to love and give grace more than doing so.

[NorrinRadd]

I had finished with this thread long ago until you quoted me. I am finished with it again. You can all carry on believing what you want regardless of what scripture says.

Typical arrogant half-witted fundy-speak. As if Scripture self-evidently and unambiguously supports a particular view, in this case cessationist.

This attitude is why I dismiss "Christians" like J-Mac, Justin Peters, Owen Strachan, and their ilk.

[Esther]

Regrettably, I was once in the camp of constantly criticizing other Christians -- especially those who were more on the Charismatic side of things. I called them Charismaniacs because what I saw (from other people criticizing) was they seemed like absolute crack pots (and to be sure, there are definitely some crack pots out there).

Though, it was on a serious missions trip to Bolivia where I was confronted with the fact that all my Bible knowledge did me no good when it came to confronting the demonic. There is something about a young child (girl) who doesn't speak English, that is all of a sudden speaking in a mans voice in English about owning the body of the girl and trying to scare people from sharing the gospel that will get you pucker a little bit (and question your anti-charismatic views ))..oh my word was I scared! And my pride of my knowledge regarding the Bible was shattered in an instant.

It was then that I repented and began the journey of trusting God with all 'that spiritual stuff' that was beyond the secular scientific world and book knowledge that I was so comfortable in. And TBH, nothing has been more humbling and taught me to love and give grace more than doing so.

Yes how unequipped a Christian is who does not know the authority of the name of Jesus, the Word of God and the Blood of Jesus to deal with the works of the devil. Thank you for this input. What is TBH?

[Darfius]

That is totally your right and your prerogative. Though I am curious if eyewitness accounts aren't sufficient for you, why trust the gospels?

Comparing your credibility to the Biblical authors? AutoFail.

What I have often found is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, they will always find a reason not to. So when a radiology report shows cancer one week, and no cancer the next -- the reports are then questioned, or the doctors. It is as if no amount of evidence will suffice -- because at the end of the day the miraculous cannot happen and there has to be some naturalistic reason as to why it really didn't happen or something else happened (other than God) that caused the healing.

I'm no mossrose fan since she advocated censoring me, but she did, in fact, say she did not discount miracles, only their human origin. So if you can lie about this claim, why should we believe your others? Presumably to save face you will try to argue, "I didn't claim anything, I only snidely implied it." Fail.

[Darfius]

Typical arrogant half-witted fundy-speak. As if Scripture self-evidently and unambiguously supports a particular view, in this case cessationist.

This attitude is why I dismiss "Christians" like J-Mac, Justin Peters, Owen Strachan, and their ilk.

Is it preferable to believe that Scripture can support whatever random nonsense your resident cult leader wants to enforce today? I like how an arrogant insult follows directly on the heels of accusing someone else of arrogance. I'm arrogant, but it's because I have the ability, right and duty to be. It's my job to put morons like you in your place.

The point of miracles was to encourage faith, not reward it. That's the first clue as to why non-cessationists are stupid. Jesus was friggin' God, and even He couldn't do miracles if there was not enough likelihood it would result in obedient faith. It wasn't 'cause He didn't have faith Himself...wait for it...OBVIOUSLY.

Unsurprisingly, it's always the hypocritical, showboating idiots falling over themselves rolling in "church" aisles muttering gibberish who have the most vested interest in getting everyone else to believe it's Holy Spirit inspired 'cause they're so friggin' holy. "Once, when I was on a mission--'cause I go on missions a lot 'cause I love God more than you--I saw some stuff that proves I'm right, which proves I'm holy, which proves I'm right, which proves...I'm falling into a black hole of self-gratulation! Jump in, the egoistic waters are fine!"

The point of speaking in tongues was to make the gospel message accessible to other peoples...what purpose would that serve in a globally connected world where interpreters and multilinguists abound?

I hope I sound like an arrogant "fundy" when I say this: Enjoy projecting faith instead of living it.

[alaskazimm]

Yes how unequipped a Christian is who does not know the authority of the name of Jesus, the Word of God and the Blood of Jesus to deal with the works of the devil. Thank you for this input. What is TBH?

To Be Honest

[NorrinRadd]

Is it preferable to believe that Scripture can support whatever random nonsense your resident cult leader wants to enforce today? I like how an arrogant insult follows directly on the heels of accusing someone else of arrogance. I'm arrogant, but it's because I have the ability, right and duty to be. It's my job to put morons like you in your place.

The point of miracles was to encourage faith, not reward it. That's the first clue as to why non-cessationists are stupid. Jesus was friggin' God, and even He couldn't do miracles if there was not enough likelihood it would result in obedient faith. It wasn't 'cause He didn't have faith Himself...wait for it...OBVIOUSLY.

Unsurprisingly, it's always the hypocritical, showboating idiots falling over themselves rolling in "church" aisles muttering gibberish who have the most vested interest in getting everyone else to believe it's Holy Spirit inspired 'cause they're so friggin' holy. "Once, when I was on a mission--'cause I go on missions a lot 'cause I love God more than you--I saw some stuff that proves I'm right, which proves I'm holy, which proves I'm right, which proves...I'm falling into a black hole of self-gratulation! Jump in, the egoistic waters are fine!"

The point of speaking in tongues was to make the gospel message accessible to other peoples...what purpose would that serve in a globally connected world where interpreters and multilinguists abound?

I hope I sound like an arrogant "fundy" when I say this: Enjoy projecting faith instead of living it.

You sound like a know-nothing jackass, a category that significantly overlaps arrogant fundies.

Despite this, I'd be happy to discuss specific areas where I disagree with your post, if you so desire.

[Darfius]

You sound like a know-nothing jackass, a category that significantly overlaps arrogant fundies.

Despite this, I'd be happy to discuss specific areas where I disagree with your post, if you so desire.

You make a post entirely of fluff and call me a know-nothing jackass. New levels of vapid obliviousness. Yea, genius, I want you to respond if you can or dare. That's kinda the point of a forum.

[NorrinRadd]

A brief interlude:

"mossy is a 'Typical arrogant half-witted fundy.' -- NorrinRadd"

I definitely characterized your wording that way, but I avoided applying the appellative directly to you. However, if you want to cop to it, I certainly won't dissuade you. I'm generally fine with embracing insulting terms implicitly directed at me.

[Darfius]

A brief interlude:

"mossy is a 'Typical arrogant half-witted fundy.' -- NorrinRadd"

I definitely characterized your wording that way, but I avoided applying the appellative directly to you. However, if you want to cop to it, I certainly won't dissuade you. I'm generally fine with embracing insulting terms implicitly directed at me.

Bro, you talk a lot without saying anything. If no one has ever told you that, I'm fine with being the first. Not sure which of your glaring character flaws is responsible, but that's beside the point and should be worked on on your own time. Please get to the point.