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Roger Olson "Against Cessationism"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I've also heard somewhere that the spritual gifts are like training wheels, so more mature Christians wouldn't need them anymore.
    "Somewhere" outside of Scripture.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

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    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

      That's kind of an odd interpretation imo. Teaching is listed as one of the gifts and elsewhere Paul chides some of the Christians (maybe those in Corinth?) that although they have been believers for long enough to be teachers, they still need the basics fed to them. I would think teaching would be for mature Christians.
      Heb. 5:12-14.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        Isn't there a scholarly book compiling mirace reports? Course, even if every account were truly a miracle, it's still statistically very rare. Don't know why Gid occasionally intervenes when He usually works more subtly. God will do what He will, and I'm not going to try and stuff Him into a box. The WOF heretics are quacks though.
        Yes. Craig Keener did a 2-volume scholarly work, and then a single mass-market paperback of accounts mostly not included in the academic editions.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

          That's kind of an odd interpretation imo. Teaching is listed as one of the gifts and elsewhere Paul chides some of the Christians (maybe those in Corinth?) that although they have been believers for long enough to be teachers, they still need the basics fed to them. I would think teaching would be for mature Christians.
          Not Paul I think - Hebrews 5:12, though Hebrews does seem to draw largely on Paul's teachings. Then there is the reason for the gifts 1Cor 12:7-9 (Specifically verse 7) and again at 1Cor 12:28-31, and yet again at Ephesians 4:11-13 (specifically verse 12).
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #20
            Scripture leads us to expect that they would be more common than they seem to be today. But it also suggests they would never be commonplace, but would always be rare enough to stand out. The "first fruits" are much less than the full harvest, the "down payment" is much less than the full sum, the "powers of the coming age" will not be fully revealed in this current age.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              Scripture leads us to expect that they would be more common than they seem to be today. But it also suggests they would never be commonplace, but would always be rare enough to stand out. The "first fruits" are much less than the full harvest, the "down payment" is much less than the full sum, the "powers of the coming age" will not be fully revealed in this current age.
              I suspect that your reading is both true and false. True from the point of view that not many will be qualified to use the higher gifts. False from the point of view that those who are qualified will be able to do so as readily as Christ himself. Noting also that in one area of Galilee at some time, apart from a few healings, Christ was not able to perform miracles - the outcome of the people's "unbelief."
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                "Somewhere" outside of Scripture.
                I'm guessing they got that idea from the end of 1 Corinthians 13.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  I've also heard somewhere that the spritual gifts are like training wheels, so more mature Christians wouldn't need them anymore.
                  It's a common story - though Paul's comments would lead to the idea that the higher gifts are (usually) exercised by Christians who are spiritual/mature.
                  The gifts of prophecy [and of tongues] can, however, manifest when a person first believes, so spiritual doesn't depend exclusively on maturity.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Not Paul I think - Hebrews 5:12, though Hebrews does seem to draw largely on Paul's teachings. Then there is the reason for the gifts 1Cor 12:7-9 (Specifically verse 7) and again at 1Cor 12:28-31, and yet again at Ephesians 4:11-13 (specifically verse 12).
                    Hebrews has been associated with Paul pretty much since the beginning although Tertullian, Origen, Hippolytus and Eusebius express doubts that Paul was the author (I believe the first attributed it to Barnabas). Priscilla and Aquila are often proposed as the possible authors today but nobody knows. It is generally agreed that the author was very familiar with Paul's teachings and more than a few think it might have been written by a Jerusalem-based Jew. But again, nobody knows.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Actually, right up until Gregory Thaumaturge's time (late third century) if accounts are to be believed, with miracles tapering off fairly quickly.
                      Tapering off, perhaps, but certainly not ceasing. That miracles occurred especially at the grave of a recently deceased saint is quite commonplace. Of course, we expect the Holy Spirit to operate, for example, at each liturgy when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ and at each baptism when the Holy Spirit is called down on the water, and there are pious people who actually see it happen.

                      Cessationism is rather akin to Deism IMO.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Hebrews has been associated with Paul pretty much since the beginning although Tertullian, Origen, Hippolytus and Eusebius express doubts that Paul was the author (I believe the first attributed it to Barnabas). Priscilla and Aquila are often proposed as the possible authors today but nobody knows. It is generally agreed that the author was very familiar with Paul's teachings and more than a few think it might have been written by a Jerusalem-based Jew. But again, nobody knows.
                        Luke/Acts - The original recipient was well acquainted with Yahwist practices and well placed in the priestly hierarchy (the honorific is one used for a person of rank) but not acquainted with Jerusalem. That points reasonably well toward either Nablus/Gerizim or Leontopolis. He or Luke had an aversion to mention of suicide by hanging (or perhaps suicide generally).
                        Hebrews - Originally found among Paul's writings, so attributed to Paul though with some misgivings. Nothing in the work points to Paul as the author. It reflects teachings similar to those of John . Beyond doubt, the Jerusalem temple was still standing when it was written. The location of the find points toward the author being one of Paul's close associates, and probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Luke/Acts - The original recipient was well acquainted with Yahwist practices and well placed in the priestly hierarchy (the honorific is one used for a person of rank) but not acquainted with Jerusalem. That points reasonably well toward either Nablus/Gerizim or Leontopolis. He or Luke had an aversion to mention of suicide by hanging (or perhaps suicide generally).
                          The big assumption here is that Luke was intimately acquainted with what the recipient knew, and wrote accordingly.
                          Hebrews - Originally found among Paul's writings, so attributed to Paul though with some misgivings. Nothing in the work points to Paul as the author. It reflects teachings similar to those of John . Beyond doubt, the Jerusalem temple was still standing when it was written. The location of the find points toward the author being one of Paul's close associates, and probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.
                          [/QUOTE]
                          Your source appears to be fond of assertively splitting hairs; it couldn't possibly be Paul's, reflects teachings similar to John's, but probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.

                          I do have a book-length argument for Luke as the author (or amenuensis) of Hebrews.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            The big assumption here is that Luke was intimately acquainted with what the recipient knew, and wrote accordingly.
                            Hebrews - Originally found among Paul's writings, so attributed to Paul though with some misgivings. Nothing in the work points to Paul as the author. It reflects teachings similar to those of John . Beyond doubt, the Jerusalem temple was still standing when it was written. The location of the find points toward the author being one of Paul's close associates, and probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.

                            Your source appears to be fond of assertively splitting hairs; it couldn't possibly be Paul's, reflects teachings similar to John's, but probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.

                            I do have a book-length argument for Luke as the author (or amanuensis) of Hebrews.
                            I'm familiar with various theories connecting it to Luke but not with John.

                            The language is considered to be a good deal more refined than that seen in Luke Acts, so I can't see him as being the amanuensis

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              The big assumption here is that Luke was intimately acquainted with what the recipient knew, and wrote accordingly.
                              Hebrews - Originally found among Paul's writings, so attributed to Paul though with some misgivings. Nothing in the work points to Paul as the author. It reflects teachings similar to those of John . Beyond doubt, the Jerusalem temple was still standing when it was written. The location of the find points toward the author being one of Paul's close associates, and probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.
                              Your source appears to be fond of assertively splitting hairs; it couldn't possibly be Paul's, reflects teachings similar to John's, but probably draws heavily on Paul's teachings.

                              I do have a book-length argument for Luke as the author (or amenuensis) of Hebrews.
                              [/QUOTE]

                              Speaking of splitting hairs:
                              similar to John in content ... correlates with John, but doesn't seem to draw on John.
                              The author was probably one of Paul's close associates (Luke would fit the bill).
                              Certain parts of Hebrews conform with Paul's teachings without actually reproducing the wording even at the level of paraphrase. It happens often enough to show that Paul's teachings probably heavily influenced the work.
                              What I wrote in the prior post and in this one is a broad brush summary of what I have been able to piece together.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                                As a cessationist, I do not believe that miracles do not happen.

                                I just believe that they are not brought about by any person, but are strictly in the hands of a sovereign God. Who never stops performing miracles. First and foremost of them is when someone comes to Him in repentance and receives forgiveness of sin.

                                The WoF and their ilk are not performing miracles. If they were, there would be no sick people in hospitals; people who lost a limb would receive a new one; the blind would see and the deaf would hear and the mute would speak.

                                Natural disasters would never happen. Covid would have disappeared immediately under the mighty breath of Kenneth Copeland. The daughter of a congregant of Bill Johnson's church would have risen from the dead. Bill Johnson would have prevented his own wife from dying of cancer.

                                Todd Bentley wouldn't have had to kick an old lady in the face with his biker boot in order to "heal" her. Todd White wouldn't have to work his charlatan act of "lengthening legs", he would have actually been able to do it for those who needed it done.

                                God can do all those things, and I do not deny that He does. People do no miracles at all.

                                From my knowledge of the people I have seen walk in the miraculous (legitimately), not one of them would take credit for the miracle or healing. They would, however, agree that they had to step out in faith.


                                Furthermore, if people walk in the miraculous, it does not follow that there would be no sick people in hospitals, or that natural disasters would never happen. By that standard, you would have to say that Jesus and the apostles didn't perform miracles. (because bad things still happened, and there were still sick people)

                                As someone noted earlier, just because the Bible attests to many miracles that may only be a paragraph or page apart, that does not mean they were happening with the sort of 100% rate that many Christians may subconsciously (or consciously) believe. Even Jesus was unable to perform great miracles in a place due to people's lack of faith (which at a minimum should tell us that the miracles are not a 100% performance rate)

                                __

                                Personally, I have seen more legitimate miracles happen first hand in the past 5-10 years than I did for the previous 30 years (like deaf people hearing, the lame walking, cancer disappearing, devils being cast out and people set free, broken limbs being healed in front of my eyes, etc). The question I had, of course, is why do I see more now than I did before? The best answer I have is that I am surrounded by people who will pray and believe for them. People can tell me all day long that the gifts have ceased or that God isn't real -- but the reality is I can't unsee what I have seen with my own two eyes. There is no other good explanation, other than: God is real, and He still performs miracles through His people.

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