Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Jesus as king - now or later?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Jesus as king - now or later?

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Jesus escaped the crowd after the feeding of the 5,000 because he... well, let John tell it...

    Scripture Verse: John 6:15

    When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

    © Copyright Original Source



    His time had not yet come. He will be King, but not yet. And even you will bow and acknowledge it.
    So as not to derail the Bahai Nationalism thread further I'm asking this here - How is Christ not king now? I agree that at the time of John 6:15 his time had not yet come but it would come shortly at the cross.

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:18

    Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Scripture Verse: Acts 7:56

    “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

    © Copyright Original Source


    Scripture Verse: Romans 10:9

    because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    © Copyright Original Source



    These verses (imo) imply at the least, if not explicitly indicate that he is now ruling as king. He has all authority in heaven and earth; he is at the right hand of God; and to be saved you must confess him as Lord (he isn't your savior until you follow him as your king). His kingdom is not an earthly, political one but one that resides in the hearts of those who follow him from around the world.

  • #2
    I should have been more clear, but I thought I had referenced "this country" and "on the earth". Yes, He is King, but not in the sense that we were discussing as in an earthly kingdom.

    Scripture Verse: John 18:36

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    © Copyright Original Source



    From that same thread (I think)

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    A) Christianity is obviously based on Christ, recognized by Christians as the Messiah of the Old Testament
    2) The OT had the Israelites battling to possess their land, promised by God - not "the whole world"
    c) The NT (Christianity) has no such emphasis on gaining control of land or governments.
    You can't go to a palace here on earth and visit King Jesus. Certainly not the Vatican!
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 11-23-2022, 05:50 PM.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post



      You can't go to a palace here on earth and visit King Jesus. Certainly not the Vatican!



      The Crystal Cathedral!


      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

        So as not to derail the Bahai Nationalism thread further I'm asking this here - How is Christ not king now? I agree that at the time of John 6:15 his time had not yet come but it would come shortly at the cross.

        Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:18

        Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

        © Copyright Original Source


        Scripture Verse: Acts 7:56

        “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

        © Copyright Original Source


        Scripture Verse: Romans 10:9

        because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

        © Copyright Original Source



        These verses (imo) imply at the least, if not explicitly indicate that he is now ruling as king. He has all authority in heaven and earth; he is at the right hand of God; and to be saved you must confess him as Lord (he isn't your savior until you follow him as your king). His kingdom is not an earthly, political one but one that resides in the hearts of those who follow him from around the world.
        The implications cannot be denied. However, the church is designed to be an embassy under the overarching collective leadership of commissioners (aka apostles), and the more local leadership of prophets, teachers, and workers of miracles. As an embassy, it offers asylum to anyone who is acceptable to God: defined as anyone who does what is right and reveres God. Also as an embassy, it does not have the right to meddle in the affairs of this world, as it were, its host nations. The church exists to promote the cause of Christ, not to impose rules on the unwilling, nor to accept rules for itself and its people that are contrary to God's desire. So then, Christ is king of his people, but not everyone is classed as his people.


        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #5
          There is enough Scripture to portray Jesus as King while He was here on earth:

          I direct you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (1 Timothy 6:13-16, NASB)
          Therefore Pilate entered the Praetorium again, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “You are the King of the Jews?” Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own, or did others tell you about Me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests handed You over to me; what have You done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.” (John 18:33-37, NASB)
          When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also; and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.” (Acts 17:6-7, NASB)
          As for John 6:15, the people of Bethsaida attempted to overthrow the rule of Herod Philip and replace him with Jesus as an earthly king who would rule over them as a welfare state, providing them with free bread for life (v. 34). They were still hounding Him a year later (John 12:21). No wonder Jesus pronounced a curse on them and refused to do any more great works in that city (Luke 10:13). In fact, before Jesus would heal the blind man in that city, the man had to be taken out of the city first before he could be healed. (Mark 8:22-25).
          When I Survey....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Faber View Post
            There is enough Scripture to portray Jesus as King while He was here on earth:
            Prophet, Priest and King - just like that thar Christmas carol says.

            As for John 6:15, the people of Bethsaida attempted to overthrow the rule of Herod Philip and replace him with Jesus as an earthly king who would rule over them as a welfare state, providing them with free bread for life (v. 34). They were still hounding Him a year later (John 12:21). No wonder Jesus pronounced a curse on them and refused to do any more great works in that city (Luke 10:13). In fact, before Jesus would heal the blind man in that city, the man had to be taken out of the city first before he could be healed. (Mark 8:22-25).
            Yup, Jesus had no interest in being an "earthly king", but His Kingdom clearly was "at hand".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I should have been more clear, but I thought I had referenced "this country" and "on the earth". Yes, He is King, but not in the sense that we were discussing as in an earthly kingdom.

              Scripture Verse: John 18:36

              Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

              © Copyright Original Source



              From that same thread (I think)



              You can't go to a palace here on earth and visit King Jesus. Certainly not the Vatican!
              Thanks for the clarification. I don't know how many times I've heard it taught that Jesus came to be savior in his first coming and he will come back to be king, so (it is said) he is savior now and king later. I'm glad you're on my side in this one

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                The implications cannot be denied. However, the church is designed to be an embassy under the overarching collective leadership of commissioners (aka apostles), and the more local leadership of prophets, teachers, and workers of miracles. As an embassy, it offers asylum to anyone who is acceptable to God: defined as anyone who does what is right and reveres God. Also as an embassy, it does not have the right to meddle in the affairs of this world, as it were, its host nations. The church exists to promote the cause of Christ, not to impose rules on the unwilling, nor to accept rules for itself and its people that are contrary to God's desire. So then, Christ is king of his people, but not everyone is classed as his people.

                Yup, said it better than I could have.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                  Thanks for the clarification. I don't know how many times I've heard it taught that Jesus came to be savior in his first coming and he will come back to be king, so (it is said) he is savior now and king later. I'm glad you're on my side in this one
                  I think it's commonly held that the Jewish people (particularly according to John) couldn't fathom that Jesus could be both Suffering Servant AND King. But, yes, I'm on your side!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment

                  Related Threads

                  Collapse

                  Topics Statistics Last Post
                  Started by alaskazimm, 11-23-2022, 05:28 PM
                  8 responses
                  39 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post Cow Poke  
                  Started by brightfame52, 08-26-2022, 09:08 AM
                  65 responses
                  257 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post brightfame52  
                  Started by footwasher, 03-14-2021, 01:55 PM
                  278 responses
                  1,295 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post brightfame52  
                  Started by brightfame52, 12-27-2020, 12:50 PM
                  480 responses
                  1,965 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post brightfame52  
                  Working...
                  X