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Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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Assurance of Salvation

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  • #31
    In the Bible, in the only time I am aware where the term "fall away" occurs, it refers to people who reverted to the system of Jewish sacrifices in Hebrews 6. I believe it is possible to stop living by faith, and even to stop having faith. In Luke 7, John the Baptist seems to have begun to doubt whether Jesus is even the Messiah. However, even when we stop believing, eternal life continues.

    Most of the passages that people use to teach the temporariness of eternal life actually refer to sins, not losing faith. They are being inconsistent and illogical to say that we can sin and keep our eternal life, but can stop believing and lose it. I don't think you can lose it by sinning -- because Romans teaches that our sins are not even imputed to us any longer -- or by doing or not doing anything else.

    What would you have thought of Abraham's faith if he had said, "Yes, I believe that my seed through Isaac will inherit the land -- but only if I don't murder Isaac." Compare that thought to Genesis 22 and Hebrews 11. God's promise was not contingent on Abraham's non-violence. It wasn't contingent on anything. Abraham's faith wasn't contingent on anything, either. But on the other hand, he definitely had some times where his faith wavered.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TheNoviceCometh View Post
      THere are many passages in the Word that talk about the Will of God, and I wouldn't say correct doctrine is what is mentioned with God's Will.
      Yes, it is clearly not merely doctrine. His will is also that we do good works.
      For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        They are being inconsistent and illogical to say that we can sin and keep our eternal life, but can stop believing and lose it.
        Since (present) justification is by faith, if a believer no longer has that faith why should he then still be justified?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Since (present) justification is by faith, if a believer no longer has that faith why should he then still be justified?
          Excellent point (in the form of a question). Justification is always by faith. If/when that faith is completely withdrawn, one can no longer be in a justified state before God. One is only united to God through faith in Christ. If/when that faith-union is broken and one is no longer in Christ, he or she cannot be saved. How is it we are suppose one can be saved divorced from Christ? Such a notion is preposterous.
          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Paprika
            Since (present) justification is by faith, if a believer no longer has that faith why should he then still be justified?
            The Bible repeatedly uses the term "eternal life" to describe the state of the justified individual. Paul repeatedly speaks as though Christians are in heaven already. Jesus compares salvation to drinking a bit of water and never thirsting again. Elsewhere, he calls himself the bread of life, and specifically contrasts himself to the mana which required continual feeding. People who eat his bread will never hunger again. The Bible specifically states that there is only one baptism.

            Those are some reasons.

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            • #36
              You're pushing the now aspect of inaugurated eschatology too far. For example, believers have eternal life in a sense, but many will and have died.

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              • #37
                The New Testament generally does not describe people in heaven as being "dead."

                Matthew 22:31-32
                But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
                I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


                The eternal life, and the never dying, refer to spiritual life.

                John 5
                25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
                . . . .
                28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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                • #38
                  I'm not sure what you're driving at, and I'm not really interested into going down this rabbit hole with you.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    The New Testament generally does not describe people in heaven as being "dead."

                    Matthew 22:31-32
                    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
                    I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


                    The eternal life, and the never dying, refer to spiritual life.

                    John 5
                    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
                    . . . .
                    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
                    So would you agree that Jesus is saying that, at the time of Matthew 22 (i.e. before his own death and resurrection), Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are "in heaven"? Also, it seems to me that John 5 is talking about those who are physically dead receiving a physical resurrection and a final judgment.

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                    • #40
                      Yes, Abraham was in heaven. John 5 talks about both the spiritual resurrection (which has already started right "now") and the physical resurrection (which is "coming").

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        You're pushing the now aspect of inaugurated eschatology too far. For example, believers have eternal life in a sense, but many will and have died.
                        I have explained this same basic thing to Obsidian numerous times, but he insists on applying a Johannine understanding of "eternal life" (zoe aiōnios) to all the other references in the New Testament that use the same terminology. Compare John 17:3 with Romans 6:23, for example. "Eternal life" is not being used by the two authors in the same way.
                        Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-21-2014, 11:26 AM.
                        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                          I have explained this same basic thing to Obsidian numerous times, but he insists on applying a Johannine understanding of "eternal life" (zoe aiōnios) to all the other references in the New Testament using the same terminology.
                          1 Corinthians 15, for example, while speaking of those "who have fallen asleep", also describes them as "dead".
                          Last edited by Paprika; 03-21-2014, 11:18 AM.

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                          • #43
                            There is a sense in which they are dead. Their bodies are dead. But there is another sense in which they are alive. You seem to be denying that there is any sense in which they are alive. And you are using that denial to ignore the passages which speak of eternal life, reigning in heaven, never dying, never thirsting, never hungering.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              There is a sense in which they are dead. Their bodies are dead. But there is another sense in which they are alive. You seem to be denying that there is any sense in which they are alive. And you are using that denial to ignore the passages which speak of eternal life, reigning in heaven, never dying, never thirsting, never hungering.
                              Where do you get the notion in 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul considers dead believers ("those who have fallen asleep", v.20) to be alive in some capacity?
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                              • #45
                                This part implies that the dead in Christ are not really dead.

                                1 Corinthians 15
                                17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
                                18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

                                See also these passages:

                                Romans 6:11
                                Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                                2 Corinthians 5:8
                                We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

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