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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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His Elect !

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  • brightfame52
    replied
    Elect before Faith and unto Faith !2


    Also God's Elect before Faith or believing or their conversion are the Children of God, they only lack the Spirit of Adoption in their hearts which makes their Sonship manifested ! By it they become the Manifested Children of God by Faith ! Jn 11:52

    52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    In their ungathred state they are unregenerated alientated away from their Shepherd !

    That word gather together is the same word for bring in Jn 10:16

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Thats because the Children of God, the Sheep and the Elect are all the same People !

    The only difference is that the word gather/bring is joined with the prep syn which means accompaniment, or together.

    Its talking about the joining together of both the jew and gentile Sheep or Children of God under the Headship of Christ !

    With both of them joined together under Christ we have the entire household of Faith Gal 6:10 the whole Family Eph 3:15

    Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    Note: Even in unregenerecy, the Elect children of God, are not the children of the devil, though they share a common fallen nature, and when the children of God have the Spirit of Adoption sent into their heart, they are manifested from the children of the devil 1 Jn 3:10

    10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    The children of God are manifested by Faith in Christ Gal 3:26

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Faith is the evidence we are the redeemed children of God, Gods Elect !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Elect before Faith and unto Faith !

    Some in false religion give the lie that the Elect of God dont become so until after they believe, but that is false. There are scriptures that indicate this, titles they[the elect] have before they believe: One such title is God's Sheep or Sheep, or Chosen and these are one and the same ! And they are Sheep before they believe and while they are in a lost state ! This will be shown to be true by a few scriptures; Jn 10:16,26

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    Now in Vs 16 they are Sheep that Christ has, but are yet to hear His Voice in the Gospel, they canr become belivers until they hear His voice, because Faith cometh by hearing Rom 10:17

    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).AMP

    Because they are Sheep they are given hearing ears Prov 20:12

    The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

    The hearing of Rom 10:17 is Christ giving Faith or Creating Faith, its the greek word ako:

    hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor.

    properly, hearing; used of inner (spiritual) hearing that goes with receiving faith from God (Ro 10:17), i.e. spiritual hearing (discerning God's voice; see also Gal 3:2,5, Gk text).

    Also in Lk 15:4-7

    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

    7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Clearly the Sheep was a Sheep/Elect while being in a Lost state or condition ! Even before Repentance

    Jesus also said once this Matt 15:24

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Does not this statement indicate that they are Sheep/Elect while Lost ? Yes it does !

    Even while Sheep in a Lost state they still belong to Christ their Shepherd, so Christ says of His Lost Sheep, other Sheep I have, and they shall hear His Voice Jn 10:16 ! So they are Elect before Faith !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The result of Election ! 2


    Again, the men of Jn 5:40 did not come to Christ in their attempts to attain to Eternal Life, for they would have thought themselves already on that path, Jesus had just said to them Jn 5:38-39

    38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

    39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    And if ye notice in Vs 38 Jesus indicates that their unbelief is due to a lack of the word of God abiding in them, which i believe speaks of being born of God 1 Jn 2:14

    14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

    Whenever one is Born of God, the word is engrafted, rooted in them permanently James 1:18-21

    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

    20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

    21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    And so its always through the Spirits effecting His power in them ; So Jn 6:37 is speaking of those given to the Son by Election, and by regeneration/being born of God come to Christ seeking and to believe on Him and become His disciples indeed !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The result of Election !


    Jn 6:37

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Those that are given to Christ are the Election, given to Him initially before the foundation of the World Eph 1:4;Heb 2:13

    And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

    And the word of promise concerning them, they shall come to Christ, or they shall seek for a intimacy with Him, to become a follower, and it denotes that they have been given Live, which contrasts to them Jesus says earlier these words Jn 5:40

    40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Now the difference in the former ones coming to Christ Jn 6:37, they had been given to Christ by the Father [Election]

    They were doing what those in Jn 5:40 would not and could not do, and that is to come to Christ in living Faith, with a Spiritual Hunger and thirst having been created in them for Him by the Spirit Jn 6:35

    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Now understand something, the coming in Jn 6:37 is a Spiritual Coming seeking an intimate fellowship with Christ, which naturally a man cannot do.

    By nature we do not seek God Rom 3:11

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Now remember the coming in Jn 6:37

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Its the greek word hēkō and means to:

    A.to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly)

    Yet that is something we by nature do not do according to Rom 3:11, so therefore those given to the Son by the Father are coming Spiritually, having been given a New Nature that now desires and seeks after Intimacy for Christ ! The men in Jn 5:40 would not come to Christ in that matter , and frankly could not unless they had been given a New Nature as well ! This New Nature is given in accordance with Election !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The Beloved are the Elect !


    1 Thess 1:4

    4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

    The Beloved of the Lord are His Election !

    The word beloved is the greek word agapaō, yes the same word found in Jn 3:16

    For God so loved/beloved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    The ones Paul calls #1 The Beloved and Brethren in 1 Thess 1:4 are the ones Jn 3:16 says God so loved, and so since the beloved brethren are the Election of God in 1 Thess 1:4, so it is with the beloved ones , believing in Jn 3:16, the Election of God !

    The ones in Jn 3:16 are the Election of God, evidenced by their believing, for God's Love causes, effects both election and believing !

    Lets look back at the context of 1 Thess 1:4-6

    5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

    To the beloved and the Election, the Gospel comes to them not in word only but also in POWER !

    The word Power in Vs 5 dynamis is the same word used in Rom 1:16

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Thats why they are believing because to them the beloved Rom 1:7

    To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Gospel comes to them not in word only BUT " but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance"

    Also the word assurance actually means to be fully persuaded, the same word is used here Rom 4:21

    And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    So the Holy Ghost Fully Persuades with the Gospel those who are the Beloved of the Lord, the Election ! Thats why TO THEM it [The Gospel] is the Power of God, evidenced by their Believing ! Thats Why those in Jn 3:16 are Believing as well ! 8

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election ! 2


    Let me illustrate this freewill boasting concept and how Election puts a stop to it ! Jn 1:12-13

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Now whats makes the difference between those who receive Christ and those who dont ?

    The one who is a boaster will say that it was his own freewill that made the difference, but the ones who believe in Election says God's Election made the difference.

    See Election points to God making the Difference, but boasting points to their freewill making the difference in saved and lost, or who receives Christ or not.

    So thats why Election to Salvation is so hated by the natural man, for then he cannot find cause to boast about what he had done to win God's approval over the other guy !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election !


    1 Cor 1:29

    That no flesh should glory/boast in his presence.

    That word glory is also translated boast as in Eph 2:9 !

    Now, we as men by nature hate Election because it gives us no reason to boast about our so called freewill; Thats right, we cannot boast that I chose to believe with my own freewill and so God saved me because of it, and you didn't so God has not saved you ! Thats boasting whether we say it like that or not, but if in the final analysis one can say i am saved as a result of my freewill to believe, and since you didn't use that same opportunity of freewill afforded you, you are still lost, thats boasting or a cause to boast.

    But the Pure Doctrine of Election takes that boast away, so the natural man hates that Doctrine ! 7

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Is Election Salvation ? 2

    All who have been Chosen to Salvation in Eternity Past, or from the beginning , shall in time be called by the Gospel to believe the Truth 2 Thess 2:13-14

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Vs 14 being called by the Gospel, is precipitated by the Work of the Spirit unto belief of the Truth , which is the Gospel !

    The Calling of the Gospel in Time reveals who was Elected before Time, so we come to know in time of our election before time by our calling, and thats what Peter means here 2 Pet 1:10

    10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Calling will always result from Election, and so its an evidence in time of election before time !

    So in the scheme of Salvation, there is a Calling restricted to the Election, which of course cannot be the same that are called here without being of the election Matt 22:14

    14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    FYI, this called refers to the natural seed of Abraham in the formulation of the Covenant Nation of Israel, However within that Nation resided only a very small remnant of the Election of Grace ! 7

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Is Election Salvation ?

    I hear many times people say that Election, in and of itself, or Election itself is not Salvation, but that its merely unto Salvation, based upon a scripture here 2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Now understand something, that verse does not say that Election is not Salvation, but its speaking of the fruit of Salvation in time, inbelieving the Truth, resulting from Sanctification of the Spirit. In a real sense, being able to believe the Truth is a Saving or Salvation [from error]. Thats what Paul means here 1 Cor 1:21

    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    For preaching does not save anyone from hell or the penalty of sin, Christ's Death alone done that !

    Again here to Timothy 1 Tim 4:16

    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Doctrine does not actually save anyone from the penalty of sin, but it does save from the delusions of sin and false gospels and doctrines , to belief of the Truth !

    The Truth however is that ELECTION is ones Salvation from the Eternal Perspective, in the Eternal Realm, wherein from Eternity Past, the Elect ones, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as Per Eph 1:4, are by that Divine choice, saved in the purpose of God from the penalty of sin 2 Tim 1:9, and so that shall result in time, a Salvation wrought by the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13, which is but the fruit of Salvation they already had in the Eternal Purpose of God, which is Election Rom 9:11

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
    )

    These Two purposes being the same , here in Rom 9:11 and 2 Tim 1:9, God's Purpose of Election in Christ,

    So its concluded, it is not biblically correct to say Election is not Salvation, without clarification of the same ! 7

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Election in Christ Essential to the forgiveness of sins !


    Election in Christ Essential to the forgiveness of sins , for when we read the passage Eph 1:3-8
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    Its plain from these sacred words that Redemption through His Blood with the Forgiveness of sins has for its foundation Election Vs 4, Yes having been Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation, results in the bestowing of the Spiritual Blessings, of which one of many is Forgiveness of sins .

    Therefore its quite appropriate that when preaching the Forgiveness of sins as Per Lk 24:47

    47 And that repentance and remission/forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Acts 13:38

    38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    Acts 26:18

    8 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    They did not neglect the foundation of this forgiveness of sins, having been Chosen in Christ for it Eph 1:3-4,7 !

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The Elect The Salvation !


    Salvation is and always has been and will be only for God's Elect, The Israel of God, which has nothing to do with ethnicity 2 Tim 2:10

    10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Notice THAT THEY may obtain the Salvation which is in Christ Jesus ! There isnt Salvation for anyone Else in Christ Jesus but that of the Elect , for this is a clear cut connotation !

    And the Salvation here Paul is referring to 2 Tim 2:10 which is about the Church of the Eklect Gentiles, could be no other than the Salvation Promised here for God's Elect Isa 45:17

    17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    The words The Elect are in the original with the definite article indicating that the Elect Paul is speaking of is the one and only Elect of God, yet they do include Gentiles !

    διὰ τοῦτο πάντα ὑπομένω διὰ τοὺς ἐκλεκτούς ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ σωτηρίας τύχωσιν τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ μετὰ δόξης αἰωνίου 7

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  • brightfame52
    replied
    Save thy Elect !

    Isa 45:17

    17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Salvation is promised to and only provided for in Christ, God's Elect, Israel !

    The Salvation that is in Christ Jesus, even Christ Jesus the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Is a Salvation not for all mankind, but for God's own Elect 2 Tim 2:10

    10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    This is that also that David prayed for Ps 106:4-5

    4 Remember me, O Lord, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;

    5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.7

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Men pervert Election !4


    The Purpose of God according to Election Rom 9:11 !

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

    As stated previously, those of the antichrist who pervert this Gospel Doctrine of Divine Election, by lying and saying that its contingent upon God foreseeing the acts and responses of men, that such teachings are a absolute lie, and that it opposes and contradicts the very revealed Mind of God upon this Most Holy and Blessed Truth, its read here in Rom 9:11

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

    This verse very simply and succinctly yet absolutely tells us that God had no consideration of men [in this Purpose of Election] after they had been born, to determine their Election or Rejection.

    Understand something, If God did chose or elect men based upon knowing [after they were born] beforehand how they would act or choose, then Rom 9:11 gives us a false witness of the Mind of God, because they could do no good or evil until after they had been born !

    So you who stubbornly insist that Election is based upon a faulty understanding of Foreknowledge, in that it is based upon God foreseeing the actions of men to determine His Election of them, you outright call God a Liar by contradicting clear scripture testimony found here in Rom 9:11 !

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  • brightfame52
    replied
    Men pervert Election !3

    Again, Foreknowledge connected with Election 1 Pet 1:2

    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied ,

    Again as it has been pointed out before, that God's Foreknowledge in Election has nothing to do with what God foresaw of the acts of His creatures in time as Per Illustrated with Jacob and Esau here Rom 9:11

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

    God did not make His Purpose of Election Choice after seeing what a person was going to accept or reject, simply because, if that was True, Paul lied here when its being said that the Choice was made before the men were born ! Thats clear indication that God did not look to see how they would respond, since that would entail them having to had been born, for what sense would it make to say that God foresaw them acting out before they were born into existence ??

    Not only that, such a blasphemous teaching as that is, it argues that God became enlighten by His creatures, that He gained knowledge of them and their actions, obviously He could not have had before He actually saw it, He had to wait and see how they would act after He Created them ! This is the end result of the fallacious teaching of all those who teach that God's Elective choice and foreknowledge is dependent upon what God foresaw the choices men would make ! Thats is utter Blasphemy and dishonoring of God ! 6

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Men pervert Election !2

    You see if God's Foreknowledge meant as the antichrist followers tell us it means, that God foreseeing ahead of time who shall believe and who shall not believe, then that collides headlong with God's very specific stated purpose of election, not of works but of Grace Rom 9:11

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

    Rom 11:5-6

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election [purpose] of grace.

    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    It is evident that in God's first forming of the Purpose of Election, that it had nothing to do with with man might do [being unborn] and so He is claiming to not have been influenced one iota by any outside of Himself considerations, but that He merely Sovereignly chose some and rejected others, according to His own will !

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