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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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His Elect !

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  • #76
    God's Chosen People ! cont


    Now however at the time of Deut 7, the church was comprised of Chosen ethnic jews called Israel, but as time would go on it would be revealed that this Chosen People Israel whom God Loved was not only made up of ethnic jews, but of all people of different Nations, and that had been a Mystery, though hinted at in prophecies like Isa 49:6

    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    Lk 2:32

    A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    Also the Mystery was that Elect Israel, Whom God Loved was not an ethnicity according to the flesh, but a spiritual seed, hence the seed of Israel Isa 45:25 and Gal 6:16

    25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Isa 45:25 This Glory of Israel is the same as the Glory of the Church Eph 3:21

    21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    Comment


    • #77
      God's Chosen People ! cont


      Now that the Chosen People of Eph 1:4, the Church, are the same as those in Deut 7, notice Deut 7:6

      6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

      Yes, they are both Holy unto God, the fact is, there are not Two different sets of Chosen Holy People, however this is no issue at all when we understand that both objects of God's Choice here are the same people under different economies or administrations ! This is why those under the New Covenant are called with an Holy Calling 2 Tim 1:9

      9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

      He dwells among them[The Church] as His Holy People 2 Cor 6:14-18

      14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

      15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

      16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

      Now Paul here is writing the Church the Body of Christ and He is applying this OT Scripture to it:

      Leviticus 26:11-12 ; Ezk 37:26-27

      17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

      18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

      The Church, the Body of Christ is an Holy Temple unto the Lord Eph 2:21

      21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

      1 Cor 3:16

      16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

      See the OT Tabernacle and Temple of the People of Israel were merely Types of the Church, the Israel of God.

      Now it we fail to see the fulfillment of Deut 7:6 here in the Church, we are blind to the Truth !

      Comment


      • #78
        Is Christ God's Elect ?

        This question is answered in the affirmative ,lets look at Isa 42:1

        Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

        1 Pet 2:4,6

        4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

        6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

        Now if He is God's Elect or Chosen as scripture doeth testify Lk 23:35, then so are the ones Chosen in Him that constitute His Body and it's Members; for God did not choose the Head Christ with no Body members,but in God's Choice of the Head, all the Members of that Head's Body were with Him Chosen Eph 1:4

        4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

        Thats why His Members are called an Chosen Generation 1 Pet 2:9

        9 But ye are a chosen generation or offspring, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

        Paul tells us that in the beginning, He was the Head of the Body, the Church Col 1:17-18

        17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

        18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


        What does " who is the beginning" mean ? Vs 17 tells us , in that He as the Head " is before all things"

        Remember it is written of Jesus this Rev 1:8

        8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

        Rev 3:14

        14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

        The Beginning of the Creation of God is that He is the Head of the Church, His Body, which is the Creation of God, which was Created for God's Glory Isa 43:7

        Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

        And also in that capacity, as the Head of the Church, all things were Created by Him and for Him Col 1:16-17

        16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

        17 And he[The Head of the Body] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

        Now this Union of Christ and His Body existed and predated their [His Body] existence and union with their earthly head Adam after Creation. The only way to deny the Election of some in Christ, is to deny Christ's Election as well, for His Election is irrelevant if its not as the Head of His Body the Church ! 4

        Comment


        • #79
          Election is in Christ 2


          Election is in Christ . The fact that Christ Himself is God's Elect, makes it imperative that those who are Joint Heirs with Him [Rom 8:17] are also of God's Election.

          Just as Believing spouses are Heirs together 1 Pet 3:7

          7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


          And we know the Mystery of Christ Eph 5:31-32

          31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

          This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

          For Christ is God's Elect as He chose Him to be the Head of the Body [His Wife] the Church which hath many members Col 1:18

          18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

          1 Cor 12:12

          For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

          And so the Members of His Body consequently are Joint heirs with Him Rom 8:17, As Christ is the Son of God, they in Him are the Children of God, as the Son of God, He is Chosen Lk 23:35,those Chosen in Him are God's Chosen Eph 1:4 and they are Children of God, His Brethren Heb 2:13

          13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

          Rom 8:29

          29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

          We cannot consistently believe that Christ is God's Elect without embracing His Members of His Body not being God's Elect as Well !

          Comment


          • #80
            Election in Christ !


            Those who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

            4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

            They actually had a Election Being in Him, before they had one in their Earthy head of Adam at Creation. This is because Christ's Headship was before Adam's, and before Creation no other Headship existed save that of Christ, and so in all things He must have the preeminence; being that He is before all things, and by whom all things consist, and He is the Head of the Body, the Church Col 1:17-18

            17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

            18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

            This is key, Paul is saying here that in the beginning, Christ is the Head of the body the Church , before all things else !

            This is proof, if we can receive it, that Christ was the Head of the Church before all things, and He was the Head of those Chosen in Him as Early !

            This Truth establishes eternal election in Christ, or He could not have been the Head of the Church, His Body in the beginning !

            To deny Eternal Election therefore in Christ, is to deny His Eternal Headship in the beginning, and then our Christology becomes a false Christ ! 4

            Comment


            • #81
              Election in Christ


              Now this Election in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4, where He existed as the Elect Head of the Church, His Body, before all things Col 1:17-18

              17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

              18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

              It is then in Him, in the beginning before anything was made by Him, in Him was Life Jn 1:1-4

              In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

              2 The same was in the beginning with God.

              3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

              4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

              And which life was Eternal Life 1 Jn 1:2;5:11

              That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

              2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )

              1 Jn 5:11


              11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

              Now being Chosen in the Son Eph 1:4, they were Chosen in to Eternal Life, hence it was given to the them then in the Son, its that Grace given them in Christ before the World Began 2 Tim 1:9

              9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

              Peter calls it the Grace of Life 1 Pet 3:7

              Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
              The syric version renders the phrase " Grace of Life" as " The Gift of Eternal Life !

              The phrase also could read as Heirs of Eternal Life Titus 3:7

              7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

              Comment


              • #82
                More on the Elect !


                Now all the Elect of God, who died to God in Adam, and became alienated from the life of God as Per Eph 4:18

                Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

                This blindness is the same as here 2 Cor 4:3-4

                3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

                4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

                And they are dead in trespasses and sins, but yet because Christ has shed His Blood for them, washed them from their sins, having satisfied for them all of God's Law and Justice, they are quickened to life by Christ with that Eternal Life they had in Christ their Head before the world began; it is then they are born again of that incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23, and then they are manifested as His Chosen Seed as well as the Sons of God !

                Comment


                • #83
                  For the Elect's sake !


                  2 Tim 2:8-10

                  8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

                  9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

                  10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

                  The word Elect here is the greek word eklektos and means:

                  picked out, chosen

                  a) chosen by God,

                  1) to obtain salvation through Christ

                  Its from the root word eklegomai which means:

                  to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

                  Its those people God has chosen for Himself !

                  Now Paul is saying in our passage that he basically endures all things, all the adverse circumstances he encounters in Preaching the Gospel of Vs 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

                  For the Elect's Sake, God's Election of Grace, those He has reserved unto Himself Rom 11:4-5

                  4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

                  5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

                  BTW There was an Election of Grace in the time of Elijah as it was then in Paul's time under the New Covenant, that proves the connection of the OT Believer and the NT Believer !

                  This brings us to understand the supreme importance of the Truth of Eternal Election in Christ, in Preaching the Gospel. Both the Election of Grace in Elijah day as well as that in Paul's day had to be Chosen in Christ in order to be of the Election of Grace.

                  This Election is foundational because without it, there would be no Only Begotten Son from Everlasting, for then there would have been no Elect in Him before the Foundation Eph 1:4, then no Chosen to Salvation, for which Purpose, no need to send His Son to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21

                  21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

                  His People here are the Chosen, the Elect, The Israel of God; and so the Gospel of God finds its origin in God's Purpose of Election !

                  For the Gospel reveals to the Elect ones the Covenental Blessings of God to His Chosen, which Blessings are theirs according to His Choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the World Eph 1:3-4

                  3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

                  4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                  Which things God reveals to them by His Spirit 1 Cor 2:6-12 ! For as one has believed the True Gospel of God, they perceive that their Salvation comes to them from God's Eternal Election, and this cannot be unless Election from Eternity is a foundational theme in Gospel Preaching. For what meaneth this if not Election 2 Tim 2:19,10

                  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

                  Remember what Paul had just stated a few lines earlier in Vs 10 !

                  All the Spiritual Blessings one is given in time, such as New Birth, Faith, and Repentance, are due because of Election or having been Chosen in Him, their Covenant Head before the foundation.

                  Comment

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