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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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His Elect !

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  • #46
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    You are ignoring the scripture points I have made! Do you want to discuss them?
    But you avoided Scripture points already made. First discuss this then go to the next :

    Nowhere in Scripture does God damn a person in advance (even before he has done good or bad).

    Don't avoid this discussion.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by footwasher View Post

      But you avoided Scripture points already made. First discuss this then go to the next :

      Nowhere in Scripture does God damn a person in advance (even before he has done good or bad).

      Don't avoid this discussion.
      There you again, avoiding points !

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

        There you again, avoiding points !
        No I didn't. I only pointed out that you did not reply to the post where I contradicted your first point that God damns people even before they did anything, good or bad. If you avoid discussing this reply, what is the guarantee you won't avoid the next discussion poing, where you claim that Jesus was chosen to save us? Why should I reply to your new point showing you your mistake if you won't discuss the old point?

        And you should say,

        "There you're again, avoiding points! "

        That is normal English.

        In Ebonism, spoken by people of colour, they would say, like you did:

        "There you again, avoiding points !"

        Avoiding the apostrophe and whatever comes after it.

        If you are black, it's OK. If not, it's a practice called 'cultural appropriation' and is bad. Don't do it.

        Frankly, I don't see how you can continue to preach here, since you neither have a gift, nor the training, neither the talent nor the learning. The first is better, because people saw uneducated believers like Peter could defeat the Pharisees in discussions, just because they were in the Kingdom. That is the Way. What Scripture teaches.
        Last edited by footwasher; 09-18-2022, 02:27 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          No I didn't. I only pointed out that you did not reply to the post where I contradicted your first point that God damns people even before they did anything, good or bad. If you avoid discussing this reply, what is the guarantee you won't avoid the next discussion poing, where you claim that Jesus was chosen to save us? Why should I reply to your new point showing you your mistake if you won't discuss the old point?

          And you should say,

          "There you're again, avoiding points! "

          That is normal English.

          In Ebonism, spoken by people of colour, they would say, like you did:

          "There you again, avoiding points !"

          Avoiding the apostrophe and whatever comes after it.

          If you are black, it's OK. If not, it's a practice called 'cultural appropriation' and is bad. Don't do it.

          Frankly, I don't see how you can continue to preach here, since you neither have a gift, nor the training, neither the talent nor the learning. The first is better, because people saw uneducated believers like Peter could defeat the Pharisees in discussions, just because they were in the Kingdom. That is the Way. What Scripture teaches.
          Thats your specialty, evasion and rabbit trail.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

            Thats your specialty, evasion and rabbit trail.
            Prove that YOU are not avoiding discussion.

            Don't skip the first point.

            Tell me where in Scripture God damns a person in advance, before he has been created, before the foundation of the world, before he has done anything, right or wrong.

            You can even use bad English. I won't point it out as you not being qualified intellectually or spiritually to comment.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              Prove that YOU are not avoiding discussion.

              Don't skip the first point.

              Tell me where in Scripture God damns a person in advance, before he has been created, before the foundation of the world, before he has done anything, right or wrong.

              You can even use bad English. I won't point it out as you not being qualified intellectually or spiritually to comment.
              You mean like how you are proving that you do evade discussion

              Comment


              • #52
                Election is taught by the Type the Nation of Israel Isa 65:9

                9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

                Deut 7:6-8

                6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

                7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

                8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

                This language is fitting to Spiritual Israel comprised of both jews and gentiles 1 Pet 2:9

                9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

                Comment


                • #53
                  Jesus proclaims Election !

                  Jesus in His very first sermon recorded in Holy Writ Preached God's discriminating Election of some and the passing by of others who had the same needs of blessing !

                  Lk 4:25-27,28

                  25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

                  26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

                  27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

                  And the wicked natural mind was enraged at the teaching vs 28

                  28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

                  Jesus preached a doctrine that God only chooses some out mankind to bestow His Saving Mercy upon, though all need saving ! 2

                  Comment


                  • #54

                    Christ and the Elect [His Body] are One in Election !

                    Many of the adversaries of the biblical and Gospel Doctrine of election of individuals to mSalvation like to explain it away by just stating that Election exclusively applies to the Lord Jesus Christ; however what these deceivers do not know is that He and they [His Body] were Chosen by the Father in the same Election, hence we have Heb 2:11

                    11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:[/B] for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

                    And Paul writes Eph 1:4

                    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                    So True Gospel Believers were in Christ [His Spiritual Seed] from before the foundation of the world. God the Father chose Him as the Head and all that shall believe as His Body, His Members. Psalm 139 a Messianic Psalm of Christ alludes to this Ps 139:14-17


                    14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

                    15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

                    16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

                    17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

                    See Spurgeons Comments on Ps 139:16

                    http://www.studylight.org/com/tod/vi...=139&verse=016

                    Comment


                    • #55

                      Christ and the Elect [His Body] are One in Election !

                      The Lord Jesus Christ was and is the Fathers Elect Isa 42:1; 1Pet 2:4 in which He was also made the Representative Head to all persons who shall believe in Him. These had been Blessed with all Spiritual Blessings In Him, because He was their Head; and consequently they are saved and called with a Holy calling 2 Tim 1:9, and it was because of this Eternal Union, of Head and Body [members] which lays the foundation [2 Tim 2:19] by which His obedience unto death and His Righteousness is imputed to their account, and their acceptance with God, and the forgiveness of all their sins ! 3

                      Comment


                      • #56

                        The Gentiles are God's Elect !

                        One of the most erroneous conceptions in mans religion today is that God's Elect are ethnic jews only, but that is a falsehood from the pits of hell, in fact, many of the ethnic jews during Paul's Time were not God's Elect, for that is plain from Rom 11:7

                        What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

                        Israel here is National Israel, and Paul says that in her was a election of jews, and the rest were blinded, which was the nation in general, so how could the rest that were blinded be God's Elect , when they are here being distinguished from God's Elect ??

                        However, we know that not only that election in Israel was God's Chosen the Elect, but we know also that God's Chosen were also among the gentile Nations ! How do we know that ?

                        By this 2 Tim 2:10

                        10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

                        If Paul being a special selected Apostle to the Gentiles as stated 2 Tim 1:11-12

                        11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

                        12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

                        That they[Gentile Elect] also may obtain the Salvation which is in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory

                        Notice the word obtain is used here in 2 Tim as referring to the Elect obtaining Salvation among the Gentiles, which is used by Paul in Rom 11:7 for the Election obtaining Salvation in National Israel !

                        So Paul's personal Testimony as the Apostle to the Gentiles, was that He endured all things for the Elect's Sake, so it must be concluded that even Gentiles are amongst God's Elect, not just some ethnic jews 2 Tim 2:10

                        10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


                        In the greek the Elect here is touv eklektouv, the word elect is preceded by the definite article, meaning that these gentiles were of God's only special elect People as Per Lk 18:7

                        And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

                        Also the same as in Matt 24:22

                        And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                        The elect's sake here is the same the elect's sake in 2 Tim 2:10 which refers to Gentiles !

                        This poses a serious problem for those of you who have been deluded to thinking that only ethnic jews were God's Elect People !

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          1 Pet 1:1-2

                          Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

                          2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

                          The Elect here are not elected because of the obedience or faith, but unto obedience or faith Rom 16:26

                          But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

                          The Obedience is produced by the work of the Spirit, for His sanctification work is the cause of their obedience, so Peter could say this in Acts 5:32

                          32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

                          In other words, those obeying God, is a sure evidence of God having gave them the Holy Ghost, and His Sanctifying Graces unto obedience !

                          Obedience to the Gospel of God is evidence of having been born of the Spirit ! And this belongs the Elect only !

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Chosen to hear His Voice !

                            As Great as the Apostle Paul was, and used mightily of the Lord, nevertheless he was Just one of God's Elect as anyone else Christ died for. That being the case, what applied to him here is applied to each Elect Vessel of Mercy !

                            Acts 22:14

                            14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

                            Chosen to hear His Voice. Remember when Jesus made this statement ? Jn 10:16

                            And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

                            Though Paul was of that jewish fold, nevertheless He partook of the same promise that Jesus here promises of Gentile Sheep that also had been Chosen to hear His voice !

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Acts 22:14

                              14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

                              We see that the Elect, as Paul is an Illustration of, is Chosen to Hear God's or Christ's Voice, and this Spiritually. This coincides with Christ saying that His Sheep shall hear His voice via the Gospel.

                              Secondly, they are Chosen to Know God's Will, Spiritually and Experientially. Col 1:9

                              For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

                              For this cause they receive a Spirit of revelation

                              Eph 1:17

                              That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:



                              Eph 1:9

                              Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                That He should see the Holy One !

                                Acts 22:14

                                14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

                                The word for see here is the greek word eidō and is the same word used for see in Jn 3:3


                                3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

                                And the word does mean understand; But Paul saw Him both with the eye of understanding through the New Birth, and He of course saw Him Physically with His own eyes on the road to damascus, which qualified Him to be an Apostle.

                                However all the Elect of God, whom Christ did die for, have been Chosen to see Jesus with the eye of understanding through New Birth ; for to see Jesus is to see the Kingdom of God, and this seeing is a precursory to believing in Him Jn 6:40

                                40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

                                Jesus through His Ministers does open their eyes, the eyes of their understanding Acts 26:28

                                18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

                                Eph 1:18

                                The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 3

                                Comment

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