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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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His Elect !

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  • His Elect !


    Matt 24:31

    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Does God have a elect people ? There is one scripture that says God's own elect. Lk 18:7

    7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    Is the fact that God has an election a theory of a man name calvin, or is it a scriptural truth ? I believe those who in unbelief and disdain, that shrug off election and other similar truth's of scripture as that of being the mere opinion of a man, will have much to answer for in the day of Judgment, which is not far away.

    I will by God's Grace provide scriptural proof that election is the word of God, in that God, before the world began, made a distinction, a election among His creature man, choosing who would be objects of His special and peculiar Love and Favor. To begin lets look at a few verses of scripture.

    Deut 7:6; Ps 135:4; Isa 41:8-9

    Deut 7:6

    6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    What is truly amazing, is that most adversaries of the blessed Truth of election, have no problem receiving this Truth here in Deut, however they accept it as being applied to a carnal, natural people, Natural Israel, ethnic jews, but they reject the ideal of it applying to a Spiritual People, of all different ethnicities, having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    I have news for you, the Chosen in Deut 7:6 are the same exact Chosen in Eph 1:4.

    The Love God Loved them with in Deut 7:7

    7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    This is the same Love spoken of in Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    God does not have different Love, its always grounded in His elective purpose in Christ Jesus per Rom 8:39

    39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Now what makes us believe that this Love in Rom 8:39 is any different from the Love of God spoken of in Deut 7:7 ?

    There is no difference, its the same Love, for the same People, just that in Rom the Love is found out to be of a wider dimension than first revealed in Deut 7:6-7. For God so loved the World in that same manner Nicodemus. Jn 3:16. Thats Jesus point in Jn 3:16, that God had a Chosen, special, peculiar, people unto Himself, above all other People upon the Face of the earth.

    James describe them here Acts 15:

    13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

    14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    This is part of the same People God spoke to in Deut 7:6-7, but it was not known then, but they too are of the Seed of Abraham Gen 17:5

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    The Seed of Abraham, no matter what race or geographical location, are the Chosen or Elect of God.

  • #2
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    Matt 24:31

    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Does God have a elect people ? There is one scripture that says God's own elect. Lk 18:7

    7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    Is the fact that God has an election a theory of a man name calvin, or is it a scriptural truth ? I believe those who in unbelief and disdain, that shrug off election and other similar truth's of scripture as that of being the mere opinion of a man, will have much to answer for in the day of Judgment, which is not far away.

    I will by God's Grace provide scriptural proof that election is the word of God, in that God, before the world began, made a distinction, a election among His creature man, choosing who would be objects of His special and peculiar Love and Favor. To begin lets look at a few verses of scripture.

    Deut 7:6; Ps 135:4; Isa 41:8-9

    Deut 7:6

    6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    What is truly amazing, is that most adversaries of the blessed Truth of election, have no problem receiving this Truth here in Deut, however they accept it as being applied to a carnal, natural people, Natural Israel, ethnic jews, but they reject the ideal of it applying to a Spiritual People, of all different ethnicities, having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    I have news for you, the Chosen in Deut 7:6 are the same exact Chosen in Eph 1:4.

    The Love God Loved them with in Deut 7:7

    7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    This is the same Love spoken of in Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    God does not have different Love, its always grounded in His elective purpose in Christ Jesus per Rom 8:39

    39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Now what makes us believe that this Love in Rom 8:39 is any different from the Love of God spoken of in Deut 7:7 ?

    There is no difference, its the same Love, for the same People, just that in Rom the Love is found out to be of a wider dimension than first revealed in Deut 7:6-7. For God so loved the World in that same manner Nicodemus. Jn 3:16. Thats Jesus point in Jn 3:16, that God had a Chosen, special, peculiar, people unto Himself, above all other People upon the Face of the earth.

    James describe them here Acts 15:

    13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

    14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    This is part of the same People God spoke to in Deut 7:6-7, but it was not known then, but they too are of the Seed of Abraham Gen 17:5

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    The Seed of Abraham, no matter what race or geographical location, are the Chosen or Elect of God.
    What's the point in posting when you can't defend your claims?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by footwasher View Post

      What's the point in posting when you can't defend your claims?
      Did you want to discuss my points in the OP ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

        Did you want to discuss my points in the OP ?
        I can show you where they are wrong, but you just ignore the post and make other posts.

        So are you here to discuss or to preach?

        You are not on a pulpit, where the pews are silent. You are in a Bible study, where people are going to ask questions, and you have to answer.

        Comment


        • #5
          His Elect !

          There is absolutely no question, the meaning of Election is that God Almighty has made a clear Choice, for the very word signifies a selection and appointment. God has exercised His own Sovereign prerogative and picked out from among His creatures of mankind, those whom He purposed to save by His Grace. Ps 135:4

          4For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

          Notice unto Himself ! Now compare that statement with this one Titus 2:14

          Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

          Same People are they not ? Remember Paul addressed this epistle as unto the Faith of God's Elect Titus 1:2

          1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect [Chosen], and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

          Now it should be understood, there is no election or selection or choice, without a deliberate singling out, and no singling out without passing by or rejection of the rest as per Rom 11:7

          7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

          The rest ! The word rest is the greek word loipos:

          with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number

          The rest here means those jews who are not of a specific class or number, which would be the Election of Grace, God's Chosen People. You see, just being an ethnic jew born in the Nation of Israel, did not make one Chosen of God, one of His elect.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            I can show you where they are wrong, but you just ignore the post and make other posts.

            So are you here to discuss or to preach?

            You are not on a pulpit, where the pews are silent. You are in a Bible study, where people are going to ask questions, and you have to answer.
            So therefore you not interested in discussing my topic, but rather hijack it into your topic to discuss ?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

              So therefore you not interested in discussing my topic, but rather hijack it into your topic to discuss ?
              You just ignored my discussion point in the other thread. Why should we discuss here?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                You just ignored my discussion point in the other thread. Why should we discuss here?
                Again, you prove me right, you dismiss my topic for discussion to talk about yours. Why dont you start a discussion topic on your own, I will see if Im interested in following your discussion points, hows that ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                  Again, you prove me right, you dismiss my topic for discussion to talk about yours. Why dont you start a discussion topic on your own, I will see if Im interested in following your discussion points, hows that ?
                  Can you understand? You have a record of escaping questions and then starting a new thread. Why should we engage with your posts? It seems you are only interested in preaching, not in answering questions, discussing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That there is a group of elect is beyond dispute. Calvin, the man, proposed in the shadow of Augustine, the man, that God chose the elect (and, by extension, the unelect) on the basis of His inscrutable will, not by the action or belief of man. This proposition is contrary to Scripture.

                    Scripture Verse: Mt. 18:2,10-14

                    2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said...., 10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For[c]the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

                    12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Scripture Verse: 2 Pet. 3:9

                    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    The message of John the Baptist and Jesus as they preached was consistently "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Further, belief is stressed throughout the New Testament as a condition for salvation. Those aren't passive concepts.

                    Is this a contradiction? No. God's foreknowledge is what resolves this conundrum.

                    Scripture Verse: Rom. 8:28-30

                    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    See also Rom. 11:2.

                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      That there is a group of elect is beyond dispute. Calvin, the man, proposed in the shadow of Augustine, the man, that God chose the elect (and, by extension, the unelect) on the basis of His inscrutable will, not by the action or belief of man. This proposition is contrary to Scripture.

                      The message of John the Baptist and Jesus as they preached was consistently "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Further, belief is stressed throughout the New Testament as a condition for salvation. Those aren't passive concepts.
                      True, that.

                      It might be said that in repenting, the person accepts Christ - or at demonstrates that he has done so.

                      John 1:12 then comes into play.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Can you understand? You have a record of escaping questions and then starting a new thread. Why should we engage with your posts? It seems you are only interested in preaching, not in answering questions, discussing.
                        Can you understand, your record of dissing discussion of what the poster starts, and starting your own discussion with evasive questions that have nothing to do with the op discussion !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                          Can you understand, your record of dissing discussion of what the poster starts, and starting your own discussion with evasive questions that have nothing to do with the op discussion !
                          Please explain why you never answered here, but made new posts, so your weaknesses sink out of sight:

                          https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...6860#post14068

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Lets look at this principle of Divine Election within the writings of the NT. Matt 24:22,24, and 31

                            22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                            24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                            31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                            And no, these scriptures do not pertain to all earthly jews, but people of every tribe and tongue.

                            Lk 18:7

                            7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

                            Rom 8:33

                            33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

                            Rom 9:11

                            11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

                            Paul preached the purpose of God according to election in His Gospel.

                            2 Tim 2:10

                            10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

                            This points to Eternal Salvation in Christ is for the elect's sake ! Christ must have died only for the elect !

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The scripture makes it quite clear that God has a Elect People, A Special People whom He set His Love upon from Everlasting, and it is all those He Loved and Chose in His Son before the world was Jn 17:23-24

                              23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

                              24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

                              God Loved them [The Church] as He Loved His Son ! And as He Loved His Son before the foundation of the world, so Loved He all those Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world !

                              Lets notice how that phrase "before the foundation of the world" is used here and in Eph 1:4


                              4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                              Now we see how and why The Chosen were Loved by the Father before the foundation of the world, because they were One with Christ then, He the Head, they His Seed. For it is written Heb 2:11

                              11For both he that sanctifieth[Christ] and they who are sanctified [Those He offered Himself for]are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

                              Just Like Adam and Eve were of One ! Gen 5:2

                              2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

                              So it should not be any misunderstanding who it is that is God's Special Chosen People Loved in Christ before the foundation of the world. These are not ethnic jews either, though some of them included, but its everyone, gentile or jew Chosen in Christ. Now was the book of Ephesians wrote only to ethnic jews ? No sir, but both jew and gentile believers in Christ ! Now these Chosen ones Eph 1:4 are God's Elect, a People He has Chosen to Salvation, and the Only People that God will Save, His Israel. It is these only that have been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, because they were God's Elect or Chosen. Writing to them in 1 Pet 1:2,18-20

                              2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

                              Peter tells them [The Elect] this in verses 18-20


                              18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

                              19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

                              20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

                              Notice, but was Manifest in these times FOR YOU ! That is the Elect of vs 2, not everyone without exception..

                              Now it should be noted that the Chosen in Eph 1:4 and the Elect in 1 Pet 1:2 are the same Persons, the same greek word is used in the greek ! The word in Eph 1:4 is:eklegomai and means:

                              to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

                              a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

                              b) choosing one for an office

                              c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

                              In 1 Pet 1:2 it is the word eklektos:

                              picked out, chosen

                              a) chosen by God,

                              1) to obtain salvation through Christ

                              a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

                              This word is from the preceding one of Eph 1:4 The obvious connection is picked out, Chosen by God.

                              This is just as the Israelites were Chosen or picked out separate from all other People of the Earth Deut 7:6-7

                              6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

                              7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

                              As we can see, God's Love and God's choosing go hand and hand. God does not Love whom He did not Choose in Christ !

                              A word about Deut 7:6-7, God was talking about His Elect in Christ here that He Loved and Chose, and not the whole Nation as a Whole, remember, many were called, but only few were Chosen ! The words of those verses therefore could not apply to all of that Nation without exception, because all without exception were not Chosen ! It was only a remnant according to the Election of Grace Rom 11:5

                              5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

                              That would be those ethnic jews who were given Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began, along with elect gentiles 2 Tim 1:9

                              9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                              Comment

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