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What is the experience known as 'Receiving the Holy Spirit'?

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  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
    footwasher I didn't say that the Spirit was never mentioned or didn't exist or didn't do anything in the OT times. Of course it was and did. I said that―as far as we can tell, based on what the Bible itself says in both the OT and NT―the baptism of the Holy Spirit didn't exist then like it does now. The Bible itself states this:
    Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. John 7:39

    There are of course OT verses that say the Spirit "came on" someone, but it's always for a temporary time, a special circumstance or need. John 7:39 makes it very clear that our New Covenant experience with the Holy Spirit is significantly different from anything previous. And the outpouring at Pentecost proves this.

    Pentecost is a MASSIVE event and a huge new revelation. It was the 2nd Mt. Sinai and God's reversal of his separation of languages at Babel.

    But your checklist, brother, completely ignores this world-changing event. How do you justify that?

    Your checklist also ignores all the crystal-clear and specific statements of Jesus and the apostles about Pentecost and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Not to mention that 50% of the proof-texts in your list―Lk 11:20 and Jn 9:1-5―are talking about Jesus, not the disciples. And Jesus after He had already received the baptism of the Spirit. That's a rather huge error in your proof, brother. Wouldn't you agree?
    Why did God create problems for Abraham, Caleb and Jesus?

    Leave a comment:


  • GKC_fan
    replied
    footwasher I didn't say that the Spirit was never mentioned or didn't exist or didn't do anything in the OT times. Of course it was and did. I said that―as far as we can tell, based on what the Bible itself says in both the OT and NT―the baptism of the Holy Spirit didn't exist then like it does now. The Bible itself states this:
    Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. John 7:39

    There are of course OT verses that say the Spirit "came on" someone, but it's always for a temporary time, a special circumstance or need. John 7:39 makes it very clear that our New Covenant experience with the Holy Spirit is significantly different from anything previous. And the outpouring at Pentecost proves this.

    Pentecost is a MASSIVE event and a huge new revelation. It was the 2nd Mt. Sinai and God's reversal of his separation of languages at Babel.

    But your checklist, brother, completely ignores this world-changing event. How do you justify that?

    Your checklist also ignores all the crystal-clear and specific statements of Jesus and the apostles about Pentecost and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Not to mention that 50% of the proof-texts in your list―Lk 11:20 and Jn 9:1-5―are talking about Jesus, not the disciples. And Jesus after He had already received the baptism of the Spirit. That's a rather huge error in your proof, brother. Wouldn't you agree?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
    So true, Esther.
    Why did God create problems for Abraham, Caleb and Jesus?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied

    Originally posted by Esther View Post
    footwasher I like the simplicity of the NT teachings of Christ and the practical daily ways we can implement them.

    The NT sets a pattern and example for us born again believers in Christ.
    You are right that NT sets a pattern, but more importantly, all Scripture sets that pattern, because first, we have continuity from the OT to the NT, and second, multiple instances of that pattern means confirmation of its meaning.

    For example:
    What does it mean to be born again?

    When we are born the first time, it is a physical birth from our mothers.

    When we get born again, it is a spiritual birth from heaven.
    Not really. When we get born again, it is a birth originated from changing, having had a different mindset, meta noia, because of responding correctly to the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, in creating problems, crosses, and being rescued by God, resurrection. We see God creating problems for Abraham, Israel and Jesus, when they believe the Gospel, that the world is not their real home, but a different Land/Country/Kingdom is. Their belief is seen in coming out of their worldly homes/Egypt. The Holy Spirit leads them into the wilderness, and creates problems like hunger and thirst, and then rescues them. See what happens when they are exposed to suffering and rescue:

    Heb 5
    8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered.

    When tested, they showed they had learnt. Unlike Israel's response in the wilderness, and in Chorazin and Bethsaida (Google 'they forgot God's great rescues', if you don't believe me):

    Ps 78
    11They forgot what he had done,
    the wonders he had shown them.
    12He did miracles in the sight of their ancestors
    in the land of Egypt, in the region of Zoan.
    13He divided the sea and led them through;
    ...

    I repeat, how we are born again, and how we are not:

    Heb 4
    For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.

    Heb 6
    7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

    It's important to get this right, do due diligence, because if we do not hear property, that the Kingdom is near, and we can enter by passing a test to see if we are born again, changed by receiving and believing this good news, we run the risk of not being saved. Did you receive the Holy Spirit. No. Because you heard a different Gospel. You filled up the wrong application form.

    How do we get born again?
    We get born again by placing our belief/faith/trust in the Bible's story of Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.
    Again, not really. We get born again by seeing different examples of being put into danger and being rescued. This increases , or should increase our faith in God's ability and willingness to always rescue. Only Abraham, Caleb and Jesus passed the test to see if they had had a different spirit:

    Numbers 14
    20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

    24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.


    Of course, you obviously haven't been tested, because you haven't received the real offer.

    Then what? We are to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit for witness and service.
    I repeat, we are baptised into the ministry of Moses/Christ, demonstration of cross and resurrection in the wilderness, when we believe we have to come out of Egypt, because God can deliver us into the Kingdom. We show this belief by remembering the rescues God performs in the Holy Spirit experience. Even the believers in Ephesus in Acts 19 were given a concentrated dose of seeing rescue, and could be edified, because tongues edify the speaker.

    Over-complicating these simple, vital truths will end up in overloading people unnecessarily with burdens and yokes the Lord never intended us to carry. We are to enter His rest, His ease, His burden is light we come to Him all we who labour and are weary…
    You need to follow instructions, no matter how complicated they are, if you want to use that new blender you bought for your kitchen. Rest is the desired result to be reached, the destination, the harbour the ship was meant to berth at, the runway the plane was supposed to land on. The burden is light, compared to what God's people had to endure, oppressed by the Slavemaster, Law…
    Last edited by footwasher; 08-22-2022, 10:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GKC_fan
    replied
    So true, Esther.

    Leave a comment:


  • Esther
    replied
    footwasher I like the simplicity of the NT teachings of Christ and the practical daily ways we can implement them. The NT sets a pattern and example for us born again believers in Christ. For example:

    What does it mean to be born again?

    When we are born the first time, it is a physical birth from our mothers.
    When we get born again, it is a spiritual birth from heaven.

    How do we get born again?

    We get born again by placing our belief/faith/trust in the Bible's story of Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

    Then what? We are to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit for witness and service.

    Over-complicating these simple, vital truths will end up in overloading people unnecessarily with burdens and yokes the Lord never intended us to carry. We are to enter His rest, His ease, His burden is light we come to Him all we who labour and are weary...

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied

    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
    Especially since one of those passages (John 7:39) says that the Holy Spirit wasn't even given before Jesus―thus saying that Abraham and Caleb had not even experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
    The first mention of the Spirit in the Bible:

    Gen 1
    2Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the earth.

    ​​​​​
    Also, the disciples at Pentecost didn't meet your list of requirements, except #1.
    First edification, strengthening of faith:

    1 Sam 10
    5“After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, timbrels, pipes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying. 6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 7Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.


    The sequence seen in the disciples at Pentecost:

    1. Believed that the Promised Land/Kingdom of God has come amongst men- Check. Lk 11.20

    2. Received the Holy Spirit, ie. revelation from the Holy Spirit, demonstration of saving from evil- Check. Jn 9.1-5

    3. Tested to see if they believed God always rescued from evil-Check. Acts 2.14-41.

    4. Passed the test, and set up for entry into the Kingdom, like a pool ball is set up near a pocket. Check. Acts 2.44-47.
    Last edited by footwasher; 08-22-2022, 08:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GKC_fan
    replied
    Brother, that is an interesting human concoction! As many human concoctions and theories do, it looks good, and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom. ;->

    But instead of attempting to extrapolate and divine from obscure passages (obscure concerning the Holy Spirit), with the huge likelihood of human error that such a technique always and intrinsically involves, it's much simpler and secure to first see what the non-obscure passages say. Especially since one of those passages (John 7:39) says that the Holy Spirit wasn't even given before Jesus―thus saying that Abraham and Caleb had not even experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    So here are some plain and clear statements from the New Testament, the Age of the Holy Spirit:
    • He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."
    • Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
    • [The apostles] prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. . . . Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
    • On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
    Also, the disciples at Pentecost didn't meet your list of requirements, except #1.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

    Hi footwasher; thank you for your comments.

    The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit's ministry is much, much more than only strengthening our faith, important as that is.
    • He is the Comforter,
    • the Encourager,
    • "the Spirit who gives life" (Rom. 8:2),
    • and "streams of living water" (John 7:38),
    • the one who will guide us into all truth (John 16:13),
    • the one who knows the depths of our mind and heart as well as the mind and heart of the Father (1 Cor. 2:9-13), and
    • the giver of supernatural peace (Rom. 8:6).
    • As mentioned, he's the one who can give us the supernatural power, the grace, to do all the things we need to do but can't do on our own. (Giving us supernatural boldness and faith is one part of that, but only one small part.)
    • He's the source or conduit of the supernatural love, joy, patience, kindness, self-control, etc. that we all need so desperately in this life.
    All these things, not only faith, are crucial for us to be successful in walking out our God-ordained destinies on this earth.

    So thank you, Holy Spirit!
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    Please reflect on your dual posts.

    Surely you are asserting with certitude that which is at best speculative and inferential. Nothing in any text I've found links Abraham's obedient faith to the Holy Spirit. Num. 14:24 could possibly be interpreted that way in regard to Caleb, but it is far from explicit.
    Please note the exact sequence experienced by Abraham, Caleb and Jesus:

    Believe that the Promised Land/Kingdom of God has come amongst men Received revelation from the Holy Spirit, demonstration of saving from evil
    Tested to see if they believe God always rescue from evil
    Passed the test, and set up for entry into the Kingdom, like a pool ball is set up near a pocket.

    From this we know this is how the Holy Spirit is received.

    Leave a comment:


  • GKC_fan
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith-strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit . . .
    Hi footwasher; thank you for your comments.

    The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit's ministry is much, much more than only strengthening our faith, important as that is.
    • He is the Comforter,
    • the Encourager,
    • "the Spirit who gives life" (Rom. 8:2),
    • and "streams of living water" (John 7:38),
    • the one who will guide us into all truth (John 16:13),
    • the one who knows the depths of our mind and heart as well as the mind and heart of the Father (1 Cor. 2:9-13), and
    • the giver of supernatural peace (Rom. 8:6).
    • As mentioned, he's the one who can give us the supernatural power, the grace, to do all the things we need to do but can't do on our own. (Giving us supernatural boldness and faith is one part of that, but only one small part.)
    • He's the source or conduit of the supernatural love, joy, patience, kindness, self-control, etc. that we all need so desperately in this life.
    All these things, not only faith, are crucial for us to be successful in walking out our God-ordained destinies on this earth.

    So thank you, Holy Spirit!
    Last edited by GKC_fan; 08-21-2022, 09:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Please reflect on your post.

    Receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, because in the Kingdom, where the Spirit enables the performance of great works, we need courage to attempt great works, so that we can reveal God's involvement, finger, in those works, and be a light guiding others to Him.

    This is proved, seen, in how Abraham received the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, and then was able to show his new faith, when asked to sacrifice Isaac.

    Similarly, Caleb was also able to show that new faith when asked to face the enemy army.

    Israel failed the test. Just google: 'they forgot' God's great works'.
    Please reflect on your dual posts.

    Surely you are asserting with certitude that which is at best speculative and inferential. Nothing in any text I've found links Abraham's obedient faith to the Holy Spirit. Num. 14:24 could possibly be interpreted that way in regard to Caleb, but it is far from explicit.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Esther View Post
    Receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in/with the Holy Spirit are two separate events.
    Please reflect on your post.

    Receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, when God reveals His ability and willingness to rescue from problems, because in the Kingdom, where the Spirit enables the performance of great works, we need courage to attempt great works, so that we can reveal God's involvement, finger, in those works, and be a light guiding others to Him.

    This is proved, seen, in how Abraham received the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, and then was able to show his new faith, when asked to sacrifice Isaac.

    Similarly, Caleb was also able to show that new faith when asked to face the enemy army.

    Israel failed the test. Just google: 'they forgot' God's great works'.

    ​​​​​​Hebrews 6
    7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.
    Last edited by footwasher; 08-21-2022, 06:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
    The disciples and apostles went from being very fearful, foolish, and unfruitful disciples before Pentecost (knuckleheads really, much of the time ;-> ), to fearless and powerful disciples who turned the world upside down. The same goes for the wisdom He gives us. Without the Holy Spirit we can't even understand basic biblical truths, much less deeper truths: "the natural mind cannot understand the things of God." We see this also in the lives of the disciples.
    Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! . . .

    When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished!
    .
    Please reflect on your post.

    Receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, because in the Kingdom, where the Spirit enables the performance of great works, we need courage to attempt great works, so that we can reveal God's involvement, finger, in those works, and be a light guiding others to Him.

    This is proved, seen, in how Abraham received the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, and then was able to show his new faith, when asked to sacrifice Isaac.

    Similarly, Caleb was also able to show that new faith when asked to face the enemy army.

    Israel failed the test. Just google: 'they forgot' God's great works'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Esther
    replied
    Receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in/with the Holy Spirit are two separate events.

    1. In John 20:20 Jesus as the resurrected Saviour breathed on the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22

    22 And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!

    Up to this point the disciples were not yet born again because Jesus had not yet resurrected from the dead. This is an initial receiving of the Holy Spirit in order to be born again.


    2. Then there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is receiving power from the Holy Spirit essential for witnessing and service. (What took place in the upper room in the book of Acts where about 120 disciples were gathered together).

    Luke 24:49:
    49 And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high.

    Acts 1:4-5:

    4 And while being in their company and eating with them, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for what the Father had promised, Of which [He said] you have heard Me speak.

    5 For John baptized with water, but not many days from now you shall be baptized with ([a]placed in, introduced into) the Holy Spirit.

    Leave a comment:


  • GKC_fan
    replied
    What if the reason we need to receive Him is not because it is positive confirmation that we are going to heaven, but because it is rain for the ground, required to produce vegetation? Food to strengthen faith?

    Exactly. And even more!

    As someone who grew up in a non-charismatic evangelical church, I was taught this traditional view of the Holy Spirit and the baptism: that it's simply a positive confirmation that we are going to heaven. A tragically shallow and neutered view, I would now say. As someone else said of their similar upbringing, "Of course we believed in the Holy Spirit . . . because the Bible says he exists. But for all practical purposes, we didn't really. For all practical purposes our Trinity wasn't the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but rather the Father, Son, and the Holy Bible."

    This was my upbringing as well.

    Yet Jesus makes it very clear how powerful and vital the Holy Spirit is in our life.

    He will guide you into all truth; You will receive power [from him...to be] my witnesses (Acts 1:8).

    So according to Jesus, without the baptism of the Holy Spirit we will have very little or no power, and we won't have access to all the crucial truth that we need in this life.

    And we see the resulting power right there in the gospels and Acts.

    The disciples and apostles went from being very fearful, foolish, and unfruitful disciples before Pentecost (knuckleheads really, much of the time ;-> ), to fearless and powerful disciples who turned the world upside down. The same goes for the wisdom He gives us. Without the Holy Spirit we can't even understand basic biblical truths, much less deeper truths: "the natural mind cannot understand the things of God." We see this also in the lives of the disciples.
    Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! . . .

    When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished!


    The difference was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now they were fully yielded and open and available to the Holy Spirit, so He was able to speak and act through them much more fully.

    And I can tell you the same from my personal experience. My experience also shows that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is far more than merely speaking in tongues (although I do now see how incredibly powerful and valuable tongues are), because I didn't receive the ability to speak in tongues for over two years after my baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Which for me was a baptism in the Father's love. Wow! Trust me, you want that!)

    But I wanted to be certain that my experience with tongues was genuine, so I asked the Lord to give it to me supernaturally and I refused to let people pressure me into trying to make it happen: "just start making sounds." No. And so He did, hallelujah!

    The other thing I would say is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is actually or also more of a greater infilling and outflow. Every believer receives the Holy Spirit, just as the disciples did in the upper room when Jesus breathed on them. But the baptism requires a deeper and deliberate surrender to the Holy Spirit, just as we need to intentionally and actively accept Jesus as Lord as well as savior. A believer who is born again but hasn't yielded their will to the Lord is a very different person from someone who is actively and intentionally asking and allowing Jesus to run their life.

    So . . . if you haven't yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit, let me assure you, as a former anti-charismatic: you need it! And you'll be so glad you did! :-)


    What if the purpose for creation is not to reach heaven, but to manifest righteousness?

    Amen! And to help spread the Kingdom and the good news of the Kingdom.
    Last edited by GKC_fan; 08-21-2022, 12:05 AM.

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