Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Calvinism, Molinism, Arminianism poll

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Calvinism, Molinism, Arminianism poll

    I'm just curious what everyone's views are in this. Please do not turn a secondary issue into a flame war. Jesus probably wouldn't want us to do that. So, please pick the option that best fits your view or explain if it somehow fits none of them.
    11
    Calvinism
    9.09%
    1
    Molinism
    36.36%
    4
    Arminianism
    54.55%
    6
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  • #2
    I wouldn't be surprised if none of the three views are actually accurate as they're attempts to understand divine mysteries, but Arminianism is definitely closest to what I believe.

    (I also think that if we're just talking about views on election, Calvinism should have been called Augustinianism, since Calvin's views were broader, and Augustine really first came up with the idea, but that's not how it ended up getting labeled, and that's the word we're stuck with).
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-01-2022, 06:59 PM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, hopefully God will bother to correct our silly misunderstandings someday.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #4
        I am kind of halfway between Arminianism and Molinism. Maybe slightly more on the Molinism side. Both Arminianism and Calvinism have support in the bible and I think Molinism is a way to explain why both views can be found in the bible and both be true.

        Comment


        • #5
          No Calvinist siblings yet? I know there on tweb..... to all my siblings in Christ!
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #6
            I am mostly Calvinist. And, no, I can't describe what I mean. I don't even know what a TULIP is.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              I am mostly Calvinist. And, no, I can't describe what I mean. I don't even know what a TULIP is.
              IIRC, "TULIP" is an acronym for the specific points of dispute between "Calvinists" and "Arminians" --

              Total Depravity
              Unconditional Election
              Limited Atonement
              Irresistible Grace
              Perseverance of the Saints
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't know enough about Molinism -- nor sufficiently understand the little I've read about it -- to choose it.

                I chose "Arminianism." It's not a perfect fit. Picirilli's "Reformation Arminianism" is fairly close, but so is Geisler's "Moderate Calvinism," which some claim is really just relabeled Arminianism.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                  IIRC, "TULIP" is an acronym for the specific points of dispute between "Calvinists" and "Arminians" --

                  Total Depravity
                  Unconditional Election
                  Limited Atonement
                  Irresistible Grace
                  Perseverance of the Saints
                  It is that.
                  Calvinist Points Calvinism Arminian Counter point
                  Total Depravity Salvation solely through God’s decision and action.
                  Unregenerate Man is absolutely unable to respond to God. Man cannot believe unless God first intervenes.
                  Salvation dependent on man’s exercise of free will to reject or accept Christ.
                  Unconditional Election God’s foreknowledge determines who will be chosen.
                  God freely decides, in accordance with his plan, those who will be chosen
                  Election is conditional.
                  God’s Foreknowledge is based on the condition established by the man. God knows in advance who will commit to him. Foreknowledge therefore is a result, not a cause, of man’s choice.
                  Limited Atonement The benefits of Christ’s atonement are made available only to those whom God had chosen beforehand. Christ died to save specific persons. Unlimited Atonement.
                  The benefits of Christ’s atonement are made available to all, but appropriated only by accepting Christ. Christ died to save no-one in particular, but anyone who would choose him.
                  Irresistible Grace The man who is dead in spirit is irresistibly drawn to Satan, the man who is alive in spirit is irresistibly drawn to God. God grants life to the spirits of whom he will. Resistible grace. Man is able to exercise free will to reject Christ.
                  Perseverance Salvation is permanent. The saints cannot cease from persevering. Salvation is dependent upon a continuing commitment to God. Salvation can be lost.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 05-03-2022, 01:57 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    It is that.
                    Calvinist Points Calvinism Arminian Counter point
                    Total Depravity Salvation solely through God’s decision and action.
                    Unregenerate Man is absolutely unable to respond to God. Man cannot believe unless God first intervenes.
                    Salvation dependent on man’s exercise of free will to reject or accept Christ.
                    Unconditional Election God’s foreknowledge determines who will be chosen.
                    God freely decides, in accordance with his plan, those who will be chosen
                    Election is conditional.
                    God’s Foreknowledge is based on the condition established by the man. God knows in advance who will commit to him. Foreknowledge therefore is a result, not a cause, of man’s choice.
                    Limited Atonement The benefits of Christ’s atonement are made available only to those whom God had chosen beforehand. Christ died to save specific persons. Unlimited Atonement.
                    The benefits of Christ’s atonement are made available to all, but appropriated only by accepting Christ. Christ died to save no-one in particular, but anyone who would choose him.
                    Irresistible Grace The man who is dead in spirit is irresistibly drawn to Satan, the man who is alive in spirit is irresistibly drawn to God. God grants life to the spirits of whom he will. Resistible grace. Man is able to exercise free will to reject Christ.
                    Perseverance Salvation is permanent. The saints cannot cease from persevering. Salvation is dependent upon a continuing commitment to God. Salvation can be lost.
                    Of course, not everyone who identifies as "Arminian" would agree with the phrasing of the "counterpoints."
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                      Of course, not everyone who identifies as "Arminian" would agree with the phrasing of the "counterpoints."
                      That would come as no surprise. Are there any in particular that you have in mind?
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        That would come as no surprise. Are there any in particular that you have in mind?
                        I get the impression they were written by a Calvinist. They may not be blatantly incorrect, but they are phrased in keeping with Calvinist perceptions of, and complaints about, Arminianism.

                        I'll freely note at the outset that the objections I make are my own. Positions within Arminianism are diverse, and some of mine might be considered problematic even by the majority of Arminians.

                        -- On "Total Depravity" on the Calvinist side -- I do not agree with the "total inability" view of Total Depravity. Most Arminians do, and rely on universal provision of not-quite-regenerating "prevenient grace" to remedy it. I see some Scriptural basis for prevenient grace that convicts and illuminates, but I don't see any sort of partial regenerating. But IMO that chart fairly represents the basic Calvinist position, and I don't think most Calvinists would be troubled by it.

                        On the Arminian side, the phrasing is man-centered, which is probably the most common Calvinist mischaracterization of Arminianism. We believe God sovereignly chose to allow all humans who hear the Gospel the genuine free choice to accept and commit to it or to reject it. Grace is persuasive but resistible.


                        -- On "Election," I am inclined to the belief that we are chosen in THE "Chosen," Christ. God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to the issue.


                        -- On the extent of the Atonement, the phrasing, "Christ died to save no-one in particular" seems deliberately and unnecessarily pejorative. He died for all, and His will was to save *everyone* "in particular," but since His will was also to give everyone "in particular" a genuine choice, not everyone actually gets saved.


                        -- On Grace -- Yes, I believe it is resistible. I do not agree with the Calvinist view that unsaved man is completely unable to respond to God. Ligonier ministry says, "If there's one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." Twenty years or so ago, when I was first learning about soteriology, hard-nosed Calvie apologists used to bark, "RPF!" as their favorite slogan and unbeatable magic word. All the petals of the TULIP link together, but especially Irresistible Grace and Total-inability Depravity, through RPF. It's always the first place my mind goes when thinking of the problems of Calvinism, because it gives such a cruel meaning to Jesus or any preacher proclaiming, "You must be born again!"


                        -- On Perseverance -- The phrasing of the Arminian view suggests we believe we must continually strive to "stay" saved, and that any slip might potentially cause us to lose our grip on salvation. I *have* heard one or two Wesleyans say, "Saved by grace, kept by works," but that is not a well-informed view. My view is that salvation cannot be accidentally "lost," but that one does have the freedom to willfully discard it, and that such an act may be irrevocable.-- On Perseverance -- The phrasing of the Arminian view suggests we believe we must continually strive to "stay" saved, and that any slip might potentially cause us to lose our grip on salvation. I *have* heard one or two Wesleyans say, "Saved by grace, kept by works," but that is not a well-informed view. My view is that salvation cannot be accidentally "lost," but that one does have the freedom to willfully discard it, and that such an act may be irrevocable.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                          I get the impression they were written by a Calvinist. They may not be blatantly incorrect, but they are phrased in keeping with Calvinist perceptions of, and complaints about, Arminianism.
                          Correct.

                          -- On "Total Depravity" on the Calvinist side -- I do not agree with the "total inability" view of Total Depravity. Most Arminians do, and rely on universal provision of not-quite-regenerating "prevenient grace" to remedy it. I see some Scriptural basis for prevenient grace that convicts and illuminates, but I don't see any sort of partial regenerating. But IMO that chart fairly represents the basic Calvinist position, and I don't think most Calvinists would be troubled by it.
                          There are a number of verses underscoring each of two relevant points. 1/ Christ acknowledged that even the evil know how to do good. (Luke 11:11-13) 2/ God accepts all who fear him and do what is right. (Acts 10:34-35) {Keeping in mind that "fear" has a broader range in Koine Greek than it does in English}. According to Christ, the unregenerate man is capable of doing good on occasion, a circumstance which anyone can observe in the real world. Even without God's intervention, no-one is irredeemably corrupt.

                          On the Arminian side, the phrasing is man-centered, which is probably the most common Calvinist mischaracterization of Arminianism. We believe God sovereignly chose to allow all humans who hear the Gospel the genuine free choice to accept and commit to it or to reject it. Grace is persuasive but resistible.
                          I don't see a problem with a man being in charge of his own salvation - God puts him in that position.


                          On "Election," I am inclined to the belief that we are chosen in THE "Chosen," Christ. God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to the issue.
                          Ah yes - "Whom he foreknew ..." Interesting that Paul says that certain people foreknew him, which kind of calls into question the whole interpretation of "foreknew" as referring to God's knowing a person before the person existed. It would seem that the people whom God foreknew are those in past that God knew (as loyal to him). What did God do for the people he knew in the past? it seems that he started predestining them after he knew them. Likewise, Jesus gave people the authority to become sons of God after they accepted him.

                          -- On the extent of the Atonement, the phrasing, "Christ died to save no-one in particular" seems deliberately and unnecessarily pejorative. He died for all, and His will was to save *everyone* "in particular," but since His will was also to give everyone "in particular" a genuine choice, not everyone actually gets saved.
                          I did a double take on that one - but after consideration, decided that it is as accurate as it is provocative. Christ saves anyone who is included in the class of those who accept him (John 1:11-12), but the person who accepts him is not pre-selected - the individual decides for himself whether to become a member of the elect.

                          On Grace -- Yes, I believe it is resistible. I do not agree with the Calvinist view that unsaved man is completely unable to respond to God. Ligonier ministry says, "If there's one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." Twenty years or so ago, when I was first learning about soteriology, hard-nosed Calvie apologists used to bark, "RPF!" as their favorite slogan and unbeatable magic word. All the petals of the TULIP link together, but especially Irresistible Grace and Total-inability Depravity, through RPF. It's always the first place my mind goes when thinking of the problems of Calvinism, because it gives such a cruel meaning to Jesus or any preacher proclaiming, "You must be born again!"
                          Yes - the first clue: Paul said that people obeyed the gospel even while they were still slaves to sin (Romans 6:17).


                          On Perseverance -- The phrasing of the Arminian view suggests we believe we must continually strive to "stay" saved, and that any slip might potentially cause us to lose our grip on salvation. I *have* heard one or two Wesleyans say, "Saved by grace, kept by works," but that is not a well-informed view. My view is that salvation cannot be accidentally "lost," but that one does have the freedom to willfully discard it, and that such an act may be irrevocable.-- On Perseverance -- The phrasing of the Arminian view suggests we believe we must continually strive to "stay" saved, and that any slip might potentially cause us to lose our grip on salvation. I *have* heard one or two Wesleyans say, "Saved by grace, kept by works," but that is not a well-informed view. My view is that salvation cannot be accidentally "lost," but that one does have the freedom to willfully discard it, and that such an act may be irrevocable.
                          Or, salvation is the free gift of God; maintenance is the responsibility of the recipient. The number of texts attesting to the concept is considerable. To the best of my knowledge, off the top of my head, near as I can tell: the claim can be found in every non Paulian book of the New Testament, and in at least two of Paul's epistles.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wasn't sure what Molinism was so I had to go read up a little first. I still come out closest to Arminianism. Not fully comfortable with any of the 3 choices though. I'll admit this isn't an issue I've thought deeply on.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've been an Open Theist for many years now so, Arminianism is the closest to my views in the poll. I'm an extreme free will advocate...Love requires free will, not coercion. Irresistible Grace makes that impossible.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by footwasher, 07-02-2022, 06:07 AM
                              14 responses
                              79 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Started by footwasher, 06-13-2022, 11:54 PM
                              0 responses
                              28 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Working...
                              X