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Calvinism versus Molinism on the problem of evil

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    How are any of those red herrings related to the infliction of a disaster on a city by God?
    I only quoted these verses to show that God sometimes warns before sending calamity, and sometimes he does not. Would you agree with this?

    "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful." (Luke 12:46) This servant was not apparently explicitly warned about this calamity.

    Never said otherwise.
    Glad to agree...

    The fact is, Amos declares that when God sends calamity on a city, he gives an advance warning.
    Can you point me to a translation that shows this? That does not include "it"?

    Your interpretation of 7b makes the Lord responsible for every calamity that occurs in a city, whether or not there is advance warning.
    Yes. In your interpretation, could not God stop any given calamity? And is he not therefore responsible for the results? If I see a stone rolling downhill, and I could stop it, but I don't, am I not responsible for any damage it causes?

    After a destructive earthquake, someone says, "oh,oh - God has done this as a punishment." to which another replies, "Get off it. No-one gave any advance warning."
    Why is the warning so important to you, though? God sends calamities, yet he is not the author of evil, what he does has in every case, a good purpose, and a good outcome.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      I only quoted these verses to show that God sometimes warns before sending calamity, and sometimes he does not. Would you agree with this?
      The text in question does not indicate "sometimes," nor does it refer to anything beyond a calamity for a city. Calamities for cities is representative, so extending the example to other calamities in other circumstances is permissible. The text states that when God purposes to take a negative action, his procedure is to proclaim it in advance. Other texts may modify or even negate the claim, but that does not change what THIS text states.

      "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful." (Luke 12:46) This servant was not apparently explicitly warned about this calamity.
      The coming of the master is inherently neutral. Only after the master has come does calamity arise, and only for specific targets. The case of Ananias and Saphira is as close to a direct enactment of the principle as could be hoped for. Even there, sentence is audibly pronounced before it is enacted.

      Can you point me to a translation that shows this? That does not include "it"?
      אִם־ 'im- If יִתָּקַ֤ע yit·ta·Ka' be blown שׁוֹפָר֙ sho·Far Shall a trumpet בְּ·עִ֔יר be·'Ir, in the city וְ·עָ֖ם ve·'Am and the people לֹ֣א lo not יֶחֱרָ֑דוּ ye·che·Ra·du; not be afraid אִם־ 'im- If תִּהְיֶ֤ה tih·Yeh occurs רָעָה֙ ra·'Ah ? shall there be evil בְּ·עִ֔יר be·'Ir, in a city וַ·יהוָ֖ה A·do·Nai and the LORD * לֹ֥א lo not * עָשָֽׂה׃ 'a·Sah. hath not done (note that YHVH has been rendered Adonai). {HiSB}

      You could also find a KJV version which identifies words added in translation (usually by presenting them in italics). Simple fact: even with "it" in place, identifying the antecedent noun is a matter of interpretation.

      could not God stop any given calamity? And is he not therefore responsible for the results? If I see a stone rolling downhill, and I could stop it, but I don't, am I not responsible for any damage it causes?
      Yes, responsibility for the outcome would fall on you. No, you are not responsible for the circumstance of the falling rock. God may not be responsible for causing a tsunami, but would be responsible for not preventing it. If he gave warning that he was to cause a tsunami, that would be a different matter. In the latter case, (assuming that God did not change his mind and cancel the plan) it would be reasonable to expect that the tsunami might be somewhat freakish in its action, maybe even to the extent of having specific targets.

      Why is the warning so important to you, though? God sends calamities, yet he is not the author of evil, what he does has in every case, a good purpose, and a good outcome.
      1/ I am interested in a proper evaluation of the text. What the text itself says is more important than finding ways to make it fit into my theology, which would preferably reflect the scriptural record accurately.
      2/ (Unless modifying passages are found) No calamity can be attributed to judgement by God unless it is announced beforehand by God's accredited agents. Post fact claims that "Goddidit" are invalid. So what is a person doing when he attributes something to God that God did not do? Is this so small a consideration?
      Last edited by tabibito; 05-04-2022, 08:58 PM.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        The text states that when God purposes to take a negative action, his procedure is to proclaim it in advance.
        No, to tell his prophets in advance, is what the text states.

        The coming of the master is inherently neutral. Only after the master has come does calamity arise, and only for specific targets. The case of Ananias and Saphira is as close to a direct enactment of the principle as could be hoped for. Even there, sentence is audibly pronounced before it is enacted.
        But no warning before this calamity, though.

        You could also find a KJV version which identifies words added in translation (usually by presenting them in italics). Simple fact: even with "it" in place, identifying the antecedent noun is a matter of interpretation.
        We may have to agree to disagree, here, then.

        Yes, responsibility for the outcome would fall on you. No, you are not responsible for the circumstance of the falling rock. God may not be responsible for causing a tsunami, but would be responsible for not preventing it.
        So then God is responsible for every calamity? He could prevent them all.

        No calamity can be attributed to judgement by God unless it is announced beforehand by God's accredited agents. Post fact claims that "Goddidit" are invalid. So what is a person doing when he attributes something to God that God did not do? Is this so small a consideration?
        But Job was not warned, nor did God announce his calamities before they happened. But Job says God did it, and he did not sin in what he said (Job 1:20-22).

        And yes, it is sinful to attribute to God something he did not do, just as it is sinful to say God did not do something he actually did.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          No, to tell his prophets in advance, is what the text states.
          Correct. Unless he is told otherwise, what is a prophet supposed to do with that information?

          But no warning before this calamity, though.
          That is lineball - nothing says that a warning will necessarily be given far enough in advance to allow time for a response, though in almost all cases it will be.
          Sentence was pronounced before it was enacted. Otherwise no claim that God had acted could be sustained.

          We may have to agree to disagree, here, then.
          About what? Are you claiming that a text does not need to be interpreted before it can be understood? That is what "rightly dividing" a text involves. dividing (here) = "discerning the meaning of."

          So then God is responsible for every calamity? He could prevent them all.
          Seems that way. "Responsible for" does not imply "causes."

          But Job was not warned, nor did God announce his calamities before they happened. But Job says God did it, and he did not sin in what he said (Job 1:20-22).
          Whether or not Job said it, the text is also clear in stating that God did not immediately cause the problems - he simply gave permission for another to cause them.

          And yes, it is sinful to attribute to God something he did not do, just as it is sinful to say God did not do something he actually did.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            About what? Are you claiming that a text does not need to be interpreted before it can be understood? That is what "rightly dividing" a text involves. dividing (here) = "discerning the meaning of."
            Certainly texts may need interpretation.

            Seems that way. "Responsible for" does not imply "causes."
            Close enough! The objection is usually that God is not responsible for calamity.

            Whether or not Job said it, the text is also clear in stating that God did not immediately cause the problems - he simply gave permission for another to cause them.
            But God did ultimately cause them, though secondary causes were involved:

            "He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” (Job 2:3)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              I only quoted these verses to show that God sometimes warns before sending calamity, and sometimes he does not. Would you agree with this?
              ...
              Blessings,
              Lee
              There are several instances of ambiguity in the posts. However, an occurrence I'd like to point out is that it's very likely that the calamities ARE the warnings!

              God causes the tower in Siloam to fall, killing serveral. Then Pilate desecrates the Temple, by sacrificing Jews on its altar. These are warnings of a 'wrath', causing huge crowds to run to John, seeking a way to avoid that 'wrath to come'.

              The warnings are temblors, precursors to the huge earthquake that is bound to follow.

              They are a repetition of what happened before, when Israel was scattered, taken away from Jerusalem. Back then, there was a Remnant, that followed a Way, who escaped 'wrath'.

              The crowd wanted to be identified with that 'Remnant', and John's disciples seemed to not have had any bad things happen to them.

              So, yes.

              People would tremble when the trumpet sounded.

              People would tremble when calamities arose.

              ​​​God would warn through calamities and words from His prophets.

              Luke 20
              9He went on to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.

              13“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’

              14“But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 15So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

              “What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”

              When the people heard this, they said, “God forbid!”

              17Jesus looked directly at them and asked, “Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

              “ ‘The stone the builders rejected

              has become the cornerstone’ a ?

              18Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

              Luke 13
              1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

              6Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

              8“ ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down


              Last edited by footwasher; 06-05-2022, 12:30 PM.

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