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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Doctrines that Destroy lives

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Esther View Post

    Ok what about Hebrews 11:6?

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    Human faith cannot save. It's the kind of faith people buy used cars with. It's the same type of faith Catholics and cults have.

    Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit God must give to you before you can believe. That is, everyone He saves has faith from the Holy Spirit. Remember, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. If you believe, it tells you God saved you. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe in the biblical sense.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Esther View Post

      Ok what about Hebrews 11:6?

      But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
      Also worth noting: in that pericope, where Rahab is spoken of, the opposite of "faith" is not "disbelief," but "disobedience." Which indicates fairly firmly that the faith spoken of is not belief, but fidelity.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        The very first line says: neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

        Calvinism doesn't remove free will, nor does God cause people to sin. Calvinism merely states that a man cannot choose God until he is 'awakened' by the holy spirit. Then he is unable to NOT choose God. When a man is dead in his sins, he still has free will but his sin nature prohibits him from choosing God, he can still choose to sin. Like a heroin addict can't choose to be clean without outside help but he can still choose to take heroin.

        The Holy Spirit gives the dead man a new spirit and then that new spirit can and will choose God. In other matters he still has free will. In fact, because he is regenerated, his will is now freer than it was under sin and he can now choose to do good where he couldn't before.

        But you have turned that into hypercalvinism where even our thoughts are controlled by God, and God is the author of sin. You are not a calvinist even though you claim you are. You are a hyper calvinist. Repent Dave. You have turned God into a monster.
        God is the cause of sin. People are its author. “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

          From what I can tell, Calvinists believe most or all of those positive choices come *after* the person is born again. Calvinists believe that "regeneration precedes faith." (Some years ago, noisy aggressive Calvies were belching "RPF" all over various discussion fora.) They believe God throws darts at His cosmic dart board, and the lucky persons who get selected, He sovereignly causes to be reborn (regenerated), at which point they are able to have faith and make choices. And because his grace is "irresistible," they always choose to be saved.
          Ok thanks so that is what I consider a very skew understanding of the Bible.

          @DaveL, if you had only ever read the Bible for yourself, with no other writers or people or church influence etc whatever, do you agree that you would have a different understanding of the Bible?

          I mean some of the doctrines people believe would have to be taught and "con-taughted" (contorted) to the point of brainwashing really, for a person to read scripture through a certain doctrinal lens whilst ignoring blatant errors in the doctrines they hold fast to.

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          • #50
            Free will turns God into a bully who makes you "say uncle" or do whatever your cult tells you to do (accept their version of Jesus etc.,) or end up in hell. This is not the merciful God who saves those who cannot save themselves.

            It also makes God out to be a sleazy character who bribes people with heavenly rewards if they sell out and "say uncle". This is not the merciful and loving God of the Bible.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post
              Free will turns God into a bully who makes you "say uncle" or do whatever your cult tells you to do (accept their version of Jesus etc.,) or end up in hell. This is not the merciful God who saves those who cannot save themselves.
              Unable to save themselves indeed. But he doesn't force anyone to submit to the rescue mission - that choice remains open to the person concerned.


              It also makes God out to be a sleazy character who bribes people with heavenly rewards if they sell out and "say uncle". This is not the merciful and loving God of the Bible.
              This isn't the first time that you have contradicted scripture - Peter: "40 ... with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
              and
              Jeremiah 51:45 45 “Come forth from her midst, My people, And each of you save yourselves From the fierce anger of the LORD.

              There is no problem with people initially committing to God on the basis of perceived personal benefit. People who don't move to a more mature interaction with God will not remain saved.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Unable to save themselves indeed. But he doesn't force anyone to submit to the rescue mission - that choice remains open to the person concerned.



                This isn't the first time that you have contradicted scripture - Peter: "40 ... with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
                and
                Jeremiah 51:45 45 “Come forth from her midst, My people, And each of you save yourselves From the fierce anger of the LORD.

                There is no problem with people initially committing to God on the basis of perceived personal benefit. People who don't move to a more mature interaction with God will not remain saved.
                Free will always chooses sin. It hates righteousness. Even your choice of which Jesus idol you worship instead of the true Christ is sin. You cannot get here from there. God saves a certain number of his elect. Nothing more, nothing less.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Free will always chooses sin.
                  I chose Christ. By His Grace and my free will.

                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    You are not well versed in Calvinism.
                    Unsupported assertion duly noted.
                    But since it describes God, and can reflect your hatred for God if Calvin was right.
                    Calvin was wrong. In fairness, so was his source (Augustine).
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      You are hating God just the same (if Calvin was right) only mislabeling (lying?) by calling Calvinism, Hyper Calvinism. Here's proof. This is Calvinism Presbyterian, Church of England style.

                      CHAPTER III. Of God’s Eternal Decree

                      GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[i] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[ii] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[iii]

                      II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[iv] yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[v]

                      III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels[vi] are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.[vii]

                      IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[viii]

                      V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,[ix] out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;[x] and all to the praise of his glorious grace.[xi]

                      VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[xii] Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[xiii] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,[xiv] and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.[xv]

                      Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[xvi]


                      VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[xvii]

                      VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[xviii] that men attending the will of God revealed in his word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[xix] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God,[xx] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation, to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[xxi]




                      GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

                      [i] Eph. 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Rom. 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Heb. 6:17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. Rom. 9:15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

                      yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin


                      [ii] James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. Ver. 17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1 John 1:5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

                      nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.


                      [iii] Acts 2:23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Mat. 17:12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed: likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Acts 4:27. For of a truth, against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Ver. 28. For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. John 19:11. Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Prov. 16:33. The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

                      II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions


                      [iv] Acts 15:18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 1 Sam 23:11. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? Will Saul come down as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Ver. 12. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Mat. 11:21. Wo unto thee, Chorazin! wo unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Ver. 23. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

                      yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.


                      [v] Rom. 9:11. For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ver. 13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Ver. 16. So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

                      III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels


                      [vi] 1 Tim. 5:21. I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things, without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Mat. 25:41. Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

                      are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.


                      [vii] Rom. 9:22. What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Ver. 23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory? Eph. 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ver. 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Prov. 16:4. The Lord hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

                      IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.


                      [viii] 2 Tim. 2:19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. John 13:18. I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

                      V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,


                      [ix] Eph. 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before him in love: Ver. 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself: Ver. 11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Rom. 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 2 Tim. 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 1 Thess. 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath; but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;


                      [x] Rom. 9:11, 13, 16. [See letter e immediately foregoing.] Eph. 1:4, 9. [See letter i immediately foregoing.]

                      and all to the praise of his glorious grace.


                      [xi] Eph. 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. Ver. 12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

                      VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.


                      [xii] 1 Pet. 1:2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Eph. 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before him in love: Ver. 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Eph. 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2 Thess. 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.

                      Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ


                      [xiii] 1 Thess. 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Ver. 10. Who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Tit. 2:14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

                      are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified


                      [xiv] Rom. 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Eph. 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. 2 Thess. 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.

                      and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.


                      [xv] 1 Pet. 1:5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

                      Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.


                      [xvi] John 17:9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine. Rom. 8:28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose, &c. [to the end of the chapter.] John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Ver. 65. And he said. Therefore said I unto you, That no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father. John 10:26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 8:47. He that is of God, heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

                      VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.


                      [xvii] Matth. 11:25. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Ver. 26. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. Rom. 9:17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will he hardeneth. Ver. 21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Ver. 22. What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction? 2 Tim. 2:19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Ver. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Jude, ver. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Pet. 2:8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.

                      VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,


                      [xviii] Rom. 9:20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom. 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Deut. 29:29. The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

                      that men attending the will of God revealed in his word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.


                      [xix] 2 Pet. 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give all diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

                      So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God


                      [xx] Eph. 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. Rom. 11:33. [See letter s immediately foregoing.]

                      and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation, to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.


                      [xxi] Rom. 11:5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Ver. 6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Ver. 20. Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear. 2 Pet. 1:10. [See letter t immediately foregoing.] Rom. 8:33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Luke 10:20. Notwithstanding, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


                      None of this book sets out the doctrine of the Church of England. The Westminster Confession has influenced Anglicanism, but has never been one of its symbolical books.
                      It is however the doctrine of the Presbyterian church of Scotland, and of the Presbyterian bodies which have sprung from it as well as of other Presbyterian and several reformed Churches.

                      Anglicanism includes a Calvinist strain, and always has while it has been Protestant; but it has never formally embraced Calvinism. Calvinism has only ever been one flavour of Anglicanism, co-existing with others:






































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